(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Brian Nystrom:

Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.


I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.

Have you ever flooded your suit? Do you even know of anyone who has ever
flooded a suit? This is a common concern among paddlers, but I think
it's largely a red herring. It's more of a concern for WW paddlers than
for people like me who are sea kayakers, but it still seems to me that
the likelihood of it happening is not much higher than being struck by
lightning.

riverman wrote:

I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.

Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.

A dry suit with a double tunnel would accomplish the same thing. It's
like wearing a cummerbund.

On 20-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Nobody has mentioned it, so I'll add this: after every trip, spray
all latex gaskets with 303 Protectant, especially on the inside where
salt-perspiration degrades the latex. Doing this will prolong latex
by a factor of 3-5x.

My experience is the opposite - I have a paddling jacket (drytop) and a drysuit that are
stored side-by-side in a closet. The ($$$) drysuit gets the 303 treatment; the jacket
is largely ignored. The drysuit is worn in cold weather; the jacket is worn in warmer
weather and is stuffed into the kayak even in hot weather (i.e. it gets abused). The
drysuit gaskets are starting to crack; the jacket's are in perfect condition (the jacket's
a couple of years older)..

If you have cuffs and a collar over the latex, you don't need much UV protection
compared to the suits with exposed latex. I'd say use the 303 sparingly on
the latter and not at all on the former. I'm not convinced that 303 doesn't cause
premature deterioration of latex.

I also have a pair of latex rubbers (no, not those things you silly Brits - these cover
your dress shoes in the rain) that are almost 25 years old. They are only slightly
heavier than the latex gaskets on my drysuit. Never been treated with anything
and have been walked on a lot. Still in good shape. YMMV

FWIW, I've never heard of perspiration damaging latex.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

303 Protectant ... on inside ... will prolong latex by a factor of 3-5x.

My experience is the opposite ...

Could be the latex in your jacket was of higher quality, or newer.
Perhaps this 303 business is an urban-stream legend. But probably not,
given all the equipment vendors recommending its use, for example:
http://www.kayakacademy.com/gasket.html

If you have cuffs and a collar over the latex, you don't need much
UV protection compared to the suits with exposed latex. I'd say use
the 303 sparingly on the latter and not at all on the former. I'm not
convinced that 303 doesn't cause premature deterioration of latex.

The benefit of 303 on latex seems mostly for lubrication, rather than
UV protection. Some latex lubricant might work just as well or better.

FWIW, I've never heard of perspiration damaging latex.

"In general, Latex will decay from salt/sweat."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html

OTOH, "Saline will not ... deteriorate the latex."
http://www.cervcap.com/faqs.html

Per Bill Tuthill:
Could be the latex in your jacket was of higher quality, or newer.
Perhaps this 303 business is an urban-stream legend. But probably not,
given all the equipment vendors recommending its use, for example:

Dunno if my seals are/were latex or neoprene, but before I started slathering
them in 303 after every use, I was getting 18 months absolute max out of a set
of neck/wrist seals. Now I'm getting more than 3 years...

Also, I've discovered two ways to toast a set of seals virtually overnight:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Leave the suit in a vehicle that gets very hot inside.

2) Store the suit in one's garage near to an old 1920's-era beer refrigerator
that's emitting ozone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
PeteCresswell

On 20-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Could be the latex in your jacket was of higher quality, or newer.

The Kokatat jacket was older and one of the low end models. The Stolquist
was a lot pricier and high end.

Perhaps this 303 business is an urban-stream legend. But probably not,

I know - I've seen lots of recommendations from almost every manufacturer.

The benefit of 303 on latex seems mostly for lubrication, rather than
UV protection.

I've seen the recommendations mostly based on UV protection.

"In general, Latex will decay from salt/sweat."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html

Interesting - I guess I don't have the same hobbies as you :-)

Mike

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

You could glue cuffs one with Aquaseal or a similar adhesive/sealant.

Good advice. Aquaseal is also recommended to glue on neck and wrist
gaskets, plus booties if you choose booties instead of ankle gaskets.

There are also cements made specifically for gluing latex seals. If you
order seals from OS Systems, you should order some of their glue, too.
One big advantage of their glue is that glued items can repositioned to
some degree - if necessary - by heating them.

As Pete said, use circular plastic containers of appropriate size
to stretch the latex gaskets before glueing.

What possible advantage could there be to doing that? Seals come in
stock sizes that are designed to be glued to garments made in the same
sizes. If you did manage to stretch a seal somewhat, you would simply be
compromizing the fit of the seal to the garment. You DO need to use snug
fitting forms in the garment when replacing wrist and ankle seals or
installing latex socks. The purose is to create a smooth surface and
prevent bunching of the material, not to stretch the seal.

In my experience, stretching latex seals to fit the paddler is also a
waste of time and can damage them. Unless your neck/wrist/ankle
dimensions are very close to the seal dimensions, you're going to have
to trim them to fit. It's easy, it's quick and the suit is comfortable
immediately.

Nobody has mentioned it, so I'll add this: after every trip, spray
all latex gaskets with 303 Protectant, especially on the inside where
salt-perspiration degrades the latex. Doing this will prolong latex
by a factor of 3-5x.

Good idea especially on the outside, where the latex is subjected to UV
in use. On the inside, I prefer to use talc. It makes it so easy to slip
your head/hands/feet through seals you'll be amazed.

Good idea. Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

And Goretex (or equivalent) socks are vastly superior to latex socks
for longevity, unless you never stand up and don't walk anywhere
with your drysuit on. My latex socks never lasted more than a year,
always failing at the crease, but I walk a lot while boating.

The only problem is that Gore-Tex socks are not available as an
aftermarket item, unless you've found some source that I'm not aware of.
Kokatat will only install them on their own suits. If you own another
brand, it's latex or nothing, unless you can make your own socks. I
would love to have Gore-Tex socks on my Stohlquist suit. My latex socks
have held up for several seasons, but I like the idea of having socks
that are thinner, breathable and that slip into boots easier. BTW,
putting talc on latex socks and in the boots really helps, too.

My relief zipper leaks, as I've said here before. One time I had to
stand in armpit-high water to help perform a rescue. Afterwards it
was necessary to remove my entire drysuit, an turn it inside out
to empty about half a liter of water per foot.

Why don't you find the leak and seal it? I had some leakage with mine,
but it turned out to be leaking not through the zipper, but through some
seam tape around it that had become unbonded. Perhaps yours has the same
problem. If the zipper is actually leaking, waxing it with parafin, bees
wax or paddle wax may help.

That said, a rafter on the Illinois river (Oregon) in flood stage
once died in a long swim, probably owing to torn neck gasket, which
had been repaired with duct tape at put-in.

At the risk of sounding callous, anyone who does something that stupid
deserves to become a victim of natural selection. You don't knowingly
paddle in a compromised dry suit!

Per Brian Nystrom:
As Pete said, use circular plastic containers of appropriate size
to stretch the latex gaskets before glueing.

What possible advantage could there be to doing that? Seals come in
stock sizes that are designed to be glued to garments made in the same
sizes. If you did manage to stretch a seal somewhat, you would simply be
compromizing the fit of the seal to the garment. You DO need to use snug
fitting forms in the garment when replacing wrist and ankle seals or
installing latex socks. The purose is to create a smooth surface and
prevent bunching of the material, not to stretch the seal.

Possible semantics issue. I don't use the Ricotta cheese containers for
stretching in the sense of making the gasket larger, just to provide a stable
foundation for bringing gasket and sleeve together. What's handy is the light
taper in the container - just put it inside the sleeve and slide it out until
the sleeve is taut and then place the gasket over top of the taught sleeve's
surface.
--
PeteCresswell

Michael Daly wrote:

The Kokatat jacket was older and one of the low end models.
The Stolquist was a lot pricier and high end.

Stohlquist is not renowned for high quality at any price.
It's possible they specified a lower grade of latex, or recycled
one of those purplePassion suits (see below).

I've seen the recommendations mostly based on UV protection.

I believe the UV protectiveness of 303 is extremely over-rated.
Many years ago an ad appeared showing two PFDs, one sprayed with 303,
one not. The non-sprayed one was really faded. So I have sprayed
my PFD with 303 over the years, and it still faded badly.

OTOH, before going on low-water rock-infested creekin' runs, I spray
303 on the bottom of my inflatable kayak to make it slide better.

"In general, Latex will decay from salt/sweat."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html

Interesting - I guess I don't have the same hobbies as you :-)

That was just from Google. Try searching "paddling fun" sometime.
Isn't it really bizarre what some people enjoy? I can't see why
anyone would dress up in a latex suit.

Hopefully you also learned something about cervical caps.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Good idea [to spray 303] especially on the outside, where the latex is
subjected to UV in use. On the inside, I prefer to use talc. It makes it
so easy to slip your head/hands/feet through seals you'll be amazed.

"The oil from talc powder will damage the latex."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html