So why do you bring it up when it's not appropriate? Is that just your way of
attempting to discredit a viewpoint you don't agree with?

Uh, what viewpoint would that be? I was merely commenting in my somewhat
pointed and controversial style that I very much agreed with the assessment by
the other Scott from Great River Outfitters.

There are a lot of "common mantras" that make a lot of sense. Yes, they should
be
tempered with personal judgement, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid.

Perhaps the validity of the "common mantras" is the issue here. Or perhaps
there is no real issue here. I can't decide

That's a cute story, but it's completely irrelvent to the discussion at hand.
You're dodging the point by changing the subject.

Not at all! People like the pier diver exist. Some of them will undoubtedly
show up in kayaks. So what do you do about them? You can make it illegal for
people to dive off of the pier and post signs declaring this. Oops, they
already did that and he jumped anyway. Besides, is diving off of the pier
really all that dangerous? I've done it, as have most of my friends (and my
father too, for that matter). And none of us had any problems. Of course the
trick is to be intelligent enough to dive into the deeper water, and knowing
how to swim a bit is not such a bad idea either.
People like the pier diver are simply statistics looking for a place to
happen. They are the types of people who will not listen to all of your good
advice. They are also the types of people who could most benefit from it.
I feel that VB, the original poster has a pretty good grip on reality. While
some posters have suggested that one must always dress for immersion and do
rolls to cool down, it was VB's missing his roll which began the dangerous
scenario in the first place. Yet some of you think that he should intentionally
capsize to cool down! Seems a bit ludicrous to me. VB knew what he was doing
and was pretty well prepared. But s*&t happens. Still he managed to survive,
and learn a few things in the process. Sounds like a pretty good day to me

Oh PULLLLEEEAAASEEE! You are REALLY reaching here.

Absolutely. So what? I'm having fun

Are you actually saying that you
believe that wearing immersion protection has caused any significant number
of
deaths?

Of course not. I was just tossing out some possible scenarios (how ever
remotely possible they may be). On the other hand, I have been somewhat
concerned that rescue gear, pfd's, wetsuits, drysuits, epirbs, VHF radios and
such could in fact instill a greater sense of confidence and ability in a
person or group which might entice them to take greater risks then they
probably should. This does not mean that I believe people should necessarily
paddle without this stuff, but perhaps the emphasis in this sport should be
less on skills and equipment, and a little more towards common sense and
applied intelligence.

What kind of ridiculous response is that? Who ever made such a claim?

You posted; "I doubt that anyone has ever been injured or killed
because they dressed for immersion, but lot's of people have died because they
didn't."

I have attempted to address the part about your doubts. It is possible that
being dressed for immersion can contribute to a kayaking incident. I'm not
saying it has ever happened, but then again you don't know that it hasn't. Is
this a stretch? Probably. So what?
Then you claim that "lots of people died because they didn't" wear immersion
apparel. I doubt you would find on any of the death certificates, "cause of
death, lack of immersion apparel." People die from hypothermia and drowning
which resulted from them screwing up in the first place. Sure, being dressed
for immersion might have saved some of the fatalities. Then again, maybe not! I
don't know, and I very much doubt that you do either. Like I said before, lots
of people have died while dressed for the water as well. It is simply not
possible to look at a sea kayaking incident and know that this person would
have survived if they had only XYZ, or that that person would not have if they
didn't XYZ. You can't do it!
Is dressing for the water a good idea. Of course! But VB has his reasons for
dressing light, and at least I can respect that. One must assess each scenario
on an individual basis rather then just lump the whole damn sport into big a
pile of "you must do it this way or else!" I simply cannot accept that the very
same rules of the sport which apply to someone doing an expedition in Alaska
MUST be applied to someone else doing a harbor paddle in Southern California.
Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

Obviously, you've made your own decisions and you're not going to be swayed
by this
discussion.

Actually, I consider myself to be rather open minded. Certainly much more so
then most of the people I butt heads with on these groups. I change my mind all
of the time as new information becomes available.
As far as my arguments go, sometimes I actually have a point. Sometimes I
just pick a side to be contrary. I mean, do you really think that we are
solving any of the world's problems here? I like to try to make people think
about what they are doing. Sometimes I succeed. Other times I just **** people
off. Oh well.

Scott
So.Cal.