"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:

Why are you moving away from the question that was posed?

The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the
issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals
will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored
what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that
you can't seem to follow the discussion.

Perhaps it would help if you would specify. You tend to reply by removing
any context and then making generalized whinings and complaints. I'm quite
certain that throughout this discussion I've been quite specific, and have
addressed your questions in a direct fashion.

A self-taught paddler (as you seem to
understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path
as
they would be led down by an instructor.

How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you
know
they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see
on
TV.

If your point is that some people are stupid, point taken. As I've said, I
can point you to countless third-party verifiable tales of professionally
trained people who perish doing stupid things. It's possible there are
people who buy a WW kayak and go directly into class 4 and die. Can you
point me to some verifiable stories where this has happened? Is this common?
Or are you just making the point that someone who has done no learning and
goes into a set of class IV rapids would be in a lot of danger? If so, may I
say, once again, you need only ask me:

"Do you think it's a good idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4 WW?"
because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative.

My point - and a very different one - is that someone who wants to teach
themselves something - anything, including kayaking - can do so if they
understand just the basics of how things are learned. People do it every
day. You experiment, you observe, you progress, you experiment, you observe,
you progress.

I've spoken to some myself who are quite
honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler.

Name them - and these magical students.

Oddly enough, I don't think it's a good idea to give you the opportunity to
smear their names. I will however see if they are interested in coming into
this corner of the world and joining with me to tell you what an ass you
are, but that would be up to them, and I don't know if they are usenet
folks. But if you get tired of waiting I bet if you go a google on
"self-taught" and "kayaker" you can read for weeks.

I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these
magically
skilled self-taught athletes.

I've taught many sports over the years and have found many skilled
self-taught athletes. I've also met many pompous blowhards who think their
position as coach or teacher should require god-like reverance, because they
fail to understand their role is to facilitate the learning of the athlete,
not open their brain and pour in their own knowledge like Moses from on
high.

I've come across lots of folks who can do
a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get
good.

I've come across many folks (like yourself) who consider themselves experts
but have impossibly warped understandings of the learning process. It's
interesting to see.

On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in
another
sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but
that;s
not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations,
make
adjustuments[sic], and repeat".

Too bad you don't understand or experience the world that way. I can't
imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you
think possible without an "expert" to guide you.

So it's about having an
experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything
about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW
environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing
by?"
I'd have replied in the affirmative.

Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own.

No, it doesn't in the least. I'm talking about learning without getting
professional instruction. I never said you should do everything alone. This
is not a debate about going solo. It's about learning - you seem to think
people can only learn with professional instruction. I strongly disagree.
People learn things all the time without professional instruction, and there
is nothing to say they cannot learn better using their own methods than a
professional instructor's methods. One need look no further than the last
time I clobbered the club tennis instructor. He still doesn't believe I
never had professional lessons. You'd probably get along well with him. I
beat him worse every time we play - because I experiment, observe, adjust,
progress...poor ******* can't figure out why he seems to be getting worse
every time we play.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of
self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be
the
one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and
as
good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof.

So you are not going to answer the question?

I have never insisted or even implied that self-taught is safer. All I have
said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely
without a professional instructor. Do you disagree? If so:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that
you don't have the evidence.