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in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/13/05 6:31 PM:

On 13-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

It's about learning - you seem to think
people can only learn with professional instruction.

Please quote a single message from me where I have said anything
of the sort.

If that's not what you believe, then I apologize. But just to clarify, are
you agreeing that people can learn without professional instruction? If so,
I'm really not sure what this entire dialogue has been about, because that's
all I am saying.

If you don't agree, then of course my comment stands and the apology is
retracted.

I can't
imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you
think possible without an "expert" to guide you.

Nothing boring or frightening about my life. I don't need an expert for
everything, but know the value of an expert when I need it. I know when
it's a waste of time to reinvent the wheel. I have never learned anything
in a vacuum and am honest enough to admit it. I learn from others - just
as you do but can't seem to admit.

I learn from others all the time. But some people find reinventing the wheel
is exhilerating. For myself, particularly when it comes to leisure
activities, the last thing I want is to "professionalize" the experience. It
saddens me to see people in a kayaking newsgroup talking about paddling the
way I'd talk about economics. But hey, each to his own. But that doesn't
extend to accepting the notion (and apparently it's not what you believe
anyway?) that people are not capable of learning to kayak without
professional instruction.

All I have
said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely
without a professional instructor. Do you disagree?

Possible - yes.

That's all I have been saying.

It is entirely possible to learn the same from a non-
professional instructor. I have never said otherwise. I have said that
is is unlikely that someone can learn without _any_ instruction in a
reasonable period of time.

Maybe for someone who enjoys learning, a reasonable period of time is the
amount of time that it takes.

I taught myself to play guitar. I taught myself to play tennis. I'm pretty
good at both. I am sure with professional lessons I would have attained a
certain skill level more quickly. But I doubt I would have enjoyed the
experience nearly as much, because it was never about the destination, it
was about the journey. And I am sure many people feel the same about their
kayaking.

Most will never learn kayaking - especially
whitewater - to a reasonable skill level without any instruction.

Please provide evidence that the applied skills of self-taught kayakers lags
that of those who have had professional instruction.

If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that
you don't have the evidence.

Again - please post a quote from me where I have made any such claim that you
ask me to prove. You are asking me to prove your statements, not mine.

So you are not claiming that self-taught individuals are more at risk than
those with professional training? If you are not making such a claim, I must
again apologize, and there is no need for you to answer. If you do not
agree, then I must again request that you answer the question:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?"

You are the one that is making the claims that aren't supportable.

My only claim is that it is possible to learn to kayak without professional
instruction. You seemed to have agreed with this above. Thus I am not sure
what you are talking about, since yet again you've made a non-specific
statement coupled with a generalized accusation.

You
insist on relying on anecdote without specifying the source. You make
blowhard claims about beating the experts without training.

Mike

So forget about me. In a group like this it is common to share personal
experiences. I thought it relevant to our discussion to share my personal
experience with self-taught successes. You apparently think this makes me a
"blowhard." I have no problem with that.

I'll explain it differently.

Do you not think it possible for a self-taught person (in kayaking, cooking,
tennis, business, guitar, etc) to have success beyond what a person with
professional instruction achieves? Obviously it is possible. Such people are
all around us every day. Don't you agree?