Rick Morel wrote:

Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.


Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!

Hey, I know that the v-berth is unusable for
sleeping at sea in anything but benign conditions
anyway. Ask me how I know ;-) Might as well use
it as a big (well... sorta) walk in closet.

As far as making up the settee, which is what we
do on the Irwin right now, we'll see. The problem
is that the aft cabin is pretty low, and my wife
can not seem to remember to not bang her head on
it for more than two weeks at a time. Since she's
slightly claustrophobic anyway, but doesn't seem
to mind folding the bedding, I figure that we've
got _two_ walk in closets, and no eating after
bedtime. Of course, if you just want to catch a
quick nap, there is the qtr-berth on the other
side of the aisle from the settee, and its always
available.


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave.snip

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.

Actually, you'd be surprised. Here's a quick
rundown of what's in the kitchen at our house
right now:

Toaster Oven - 1380W
Microwave - 1560W
Coffee Maker - 1050W
Electric Griddle - 1400W
5 Burner Electric Range - 6700W

So if you turn on _everything_ at the same time
at max heat, you need 12KW, but that's not
realistic for the way you cook even at home.

Typically, for a big breakfast, we use two burners
on the range with one at 70% and the other at
30% (Hashbrowns and Eggs). The griddle is cycling
on and off to keep the surface temp to 350F
(Pancakes), and the coffee pot is brewing a pot of
coffee. Once the brew cycle is done (~5 min) it
goes to about 35% for the carafe warmer.

So you have essentially one burner at 100% for 15
minutes, + the griddle (at say 75%) for 15
minutes, plus the coffeepot at 100% for 5 minutes,
and then 35% for 10 minutes. Doing the math, you
get a peak load of (6500W/5)+(1400W*75%)+(1050W)=
3400W. You are just above the capacity of the 3KW
genset, so you either have to make the coffee
first, and then do the cooking, or, alternatively,
light off the second genset.

Note that the entire cooking time is only 1/4 hour
at 1/3 gal/hr so you use a little over a pint of
fuel to cook breakfast. At $5/gallon this works
out to 72 cents for fuel. The potato probably
cost that much! I could go through lunch and
dinner, but for us they would typically be even
less, since the griddle and coffee maker are not
in use. Often for dinner we have a salad, or heat
up homemade soup in the microwave. Lunches are
typically sandwiches, or a salad or re-heated soup.

After breakfast is cooked, the genset can power
the watermaker and the hot water heater while we
eat and do dishes. Our water heater is a 11
gallon Force 10 which draws 1500W. If the
watermaker draws 1000W like you say down below,
we've got 500W left over (12V @ 41A!) to charge
the batteries for the day.

Also, I don't really expect to use anywhere near
70 Gallons per day of water, but don't really know
for sure.

As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook.

Amazingly we came really close to the same answer
for fuel burn. Must be right ;-)


The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

Well, I'd like to minimize the number of different
fuels I have to deal with, so that's part of the
equation.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

I've got a real nice two burner camp stove with a
built in oven, but then I'd have to carry propane
again. At least part of my motivation is to avoid
that unexpected BOOOOOOMMMM when you forgot to
change the batteries in the propane detector and
that last big wave with the stove ungimballed
sprung your propane fitting on the back of the stove.

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.

okay, I'll post if/when we pull the stove.
Probably be a while though because we're swamped
with other projects right now.

At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)


I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Probably.

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.


A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.


Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)


Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.

See my discussion above. Bottom line is don't
turn on everything at the same time.

That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy!

Agreed. The aussies have some triple junction
research solar cells that reach in the low 60%
efficiency IIRC. Now if somebody would just start
massive production to get the cost down. BTW, I
had to take thermodynamics to get the degree, so
I'm with you on the energy conversion losses.
Entropy always wins.

When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries.

Neat project. You were ahead of your time.

Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.

Well, hassles are not what I want for sure. I've
already had enough for one lifetime. However,
we've got a 50GPH RO system under our sink at
home, and it's feeding into a tiny 3.5 gallon
reservoir. I don't think that little spigot on
the sink can even flow 50GPH! The reason it's got
the 50GPH membrane instead of the 12.5GPH membrane
it came with was that when I replaced the membrane
and filters a few years back I found a source for
the membranes where I could get the 50GPH membrane
for what I was paying for the 12.5GPH. I'm
considering buying the membrane and pump(s) and
constructing my own watermaker--and yes, I'm aware
that the sea water membranes are quite different
from freshwater ones like I have under the sink at
home. It's not rocket science though, and that
way when it breaks down, I'll have a clue how to
go about fixing it.

We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.


I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.

I agree. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out
where I can put any significant square footage of
solar panels unless someone comes up with ones you
can walk on that are efficient. I'll probably end
up with the requisite two on the arch over the bimini.

We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

That is... "Sweety, you'll get used to it. And
remember you don't have to go to work in the
morning either."

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Thanks for your thoughts Rick. You've obviously
been there/done that ;-)

Don W.