Don W wrote:
Rick Morel wrote:

Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep. The aft
quarterberth is quite large, and the table/settee makes down into
nice double bed for two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.


Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!

Hey, I know that the v-berth is unusable for sleeping at sea in anything
but benign conditions anyway. Ask me how I know ;-) Might as well use
it as a big (well... sorta) walk in closet.

As far as making up the settee, which is what we do on the Irwin right
now, we'll see. The problem is that the aft cabin is pretty low, and my
wife can not seem to remember to not bang her head on it for more than
two weeks at a time. Since she's slightly claustrophobic anyway, but
doesn't seem to mind folding the bedding, I figure that we've got _two_
walk in closets, and no eating after bedtime. Of course, if you just
want to catch a quick nap, there is the qtr-berth on the other side of
the aisle from the settee, and its always available.


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system out of the Irwin,
and replacing the gimballed propane 3-burner stove/oven with a
gimbaled electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along with a
built-in microwave.snip

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.

Actually, you'd be surprised. Here's a quick rundown of what's in the
kitchen at our house right now:

Toaster Oven - 1380W
Microwave - 1560W
Coffee Maker - 1050W
Electric Griddle - 1400W
5 Burner Electric Range - 6700W

So if you turn on _everything_ at the same time at max heat, you need
12KW, but that's not realistic for the way you cook even at home.

Typically, for a big breakfast, we use two burners on the range with
one at 70% and the other at 30% (Hashbrowns and Eggs). The griddle is
cycling on and off to keep the surface temp to 350F (Pancakes), and the
coffee pot is brewing a pot of coffee. Once the brew cycle is done (~5
min) it goes to about 35% for the carafe warmer.

So you have essentially one burner at 100% for 15 minutes, + the griddle
(at say 75%) for 15 minutes, plus the coffeepot at 100% for 5 minutes,
and then 35% for 10 minutes. Doing the math, you get a peak load of
(6500W/5)+(1400W*75%)+(1050W)= 3400W. You are just above the capacity
of the 3KW genset, so you either have to make the coffee first, and then
do the cooking, or, alternatively, light off the second genset.

Note that the entire cooking time is only 1/4 hour at 1/3 gal/hr so you
use a little over a pint of fuel to cook breakfast. At $5/gallon this
works out to 72 cents for fuel. The potato probably cost that much! I
could go through lunch and dinner, but for us they would typically be
even less, since the griddle and coffee maker are not in use. Often for
dinner we have a salad, or heat up homemade soup in the microwave.
Lunches are typically sandwiches, or a salad or re-heated soup.

After breakfast is cooked, the genset can power the watermaker and the
hot water heater while we eat and do dishes. Our water heater is a 11
gallon Force 10 which draws 1500W. If the watermaker draws 1000W like
you say down below, we've got 500W left over (12V @ 41A!) to charge the
batteries for the day.

Also, I don't really expect to use anywhere near 70 Gallons per day of
water, but don't really know for sure.

As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook.

Amazingly we came really close to the same answer for fuel burn. Must
be right ;-)


The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

Well, I'd like to minimize the number of different fuels I have to deal
with, so that's part of the equation.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

I've got a real nice two burner camp stove with a built in oven, but
then I'd have to carry propane again. At least part of my motivation is
to avoid that unexpected BOOOOOOMMMM when you forgot to change the
batteries in the propane detector and that last big wave with the stove
ungimballed sprung your propane fitting on the back of the stove.

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.

okay, I'll post if/when we pull the stove. Probably be a while though
because we're swamped with other projects right now.

At home we've been doing almost all of our oven cooking in a large
toaster oven due to the fact that we are currently remodeling the
kitchen. You know what? You can cook almost anything in that little
toaster oven that you can do in the big oven, and it takes a _lot_
less space. We're not talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for
12 here. Of course you need someplace to store your pots and pans
anyway...;-)


I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Probably.

Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat allows space for the
watermaker, and the genset provides the power to run it when you need
it. The same power provides plenty of hot water. In fact (heresy
warning) we plan on running the air conditioner from time to time if
it is still too hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the genset
is _really_ quiet.


A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.


Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse osmosis watermaker
should fill it from empty in 3 hours. While the genset is running
the watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging the batteries,
and providing power for cooking. So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour
and the typical $5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when anchored
out. That is $150/month, and less than our current slip fee, so not
quite up to the $10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar tab--until my wife
turns on the air conditioner ;-)


Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.

See my discussion above. Bottom line is don't turn on everything at the
same time.

That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy!

Agreed. The aussies have some triple junction research solar cells that
reach in the low 60% efficiency IIRC. Now if somebody would just start
massive production to get the cost down. BTW, I had to take
thermodynamics to get the degree, so I'm with you on the energy
conversion losses. Entropy always wins.

When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries.

Neat project. You were ahead of your time.

Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.

Well, hassles are not what I want for sure. I've already had enough for
one lifetime. However, we've got a 50GPH RO system under our sink at
home, and it's feeding into a tiny 3.5 gallon reservoir. I don't think
that little spigot on the sink can even flow 50GPH! The reason it's got
the 50GPH membrane instead of the 12.5GPH membrane it came with was that
when I replaced the membrane and filters a few years back I found a
source for the membranes where I could get the 50GPH membrane for what I
was paying for the 12.5GPH. I'm considering buying the membrane and
pump(s) and constructing my own watermaker--and yes, I'm aware that the
sea water membranes are quite different from freshwater ones like I have
under the sink at home. It's not rocket science though, and that way
when it breaks down, I'll have a clue how to go about fixing it.

We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar panels as well.
I've done the math though, and that genset is going to have to run
some. Better it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar makes a
lot of noise and causes a fair amount of vibration.


I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.

I agree. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out where I can put any
significant square footage of solar panels unless someone comes up with
ones you can walk on that are efficient. I'll probably end up with the
requisite two on the arch over the bimini.

We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later this year, and then
we'll see. My spouse of 24 years has her doubts, but I'll wager she
ends up really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

That is... "Sweety, you'll get used to it. And remember you don't
have to go to work in the morning either."

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Thanks for your thoughts Rick. You've obviously been there/done that ;-)

Don W.

Don,
Don't you have a cutoff solenoid in your propane locker to make sure
there can be no propane in the cabin if the line were to break? Propane
should be in a locker sealed from the cabin and vented to the outside of
the boat with a shutoff valve. I and many others have used it for years
with no booom.
krj