"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...

S.Simon wrote:
It does not say take all way off so you stop in the path
of the sailboat. First, the motor vessel is required to
take necessary action to avoid a close quarters situation.


And just how is the powerboat supposed to do this in thick fog, Putz?

The reason for vessels being required to sound fog
signals that identify them is because fog signals enable
vessels to plot a bearing of another vessel. Further,
the reason certain vessels (sailboats, NUC, RAM, etc.)
are required to sound a fog signal peculiar to them and
different from a motor vessel is so motor vessels can
not only become aware of bearing but of what class
of vessel is on that bearing.

So, a motor vessel upon hearing in a fog a signal of
one prolonged and two short blasts knows that the
vessel that made the signal bears whatever degrees
and is a vessel that may not be able to take
action to avoid a collision. The information that
is lacking is range, speed and course of the vessel
making the fog signal. What is known is that motor
vessel must take action early and adequately to
avoid a close quarters situation. Most often the best
way to avoid a close quarters situation is to change
the heading away from a possible close quarters situation
with the vessel that may be unable to do the same by
virtue of the signal it sounds. This means that the best
course of action for a sailboat is to hold course and
speed (which speed is already slow and already safe)
until and unless a close quarters situation develops.
This eliminates variables and allows the motorboat to
make sure it is well clear before it gets back onto its
intended course.

This also means that the motor vessel gives way. It
becomes the give-way vessel. Though not specifically
stated in the restricted visibility rules this means there
is a give way vessel created by the Rules for restricted
visibility. This means there is a pecking order also
created, though it is an abbreviated pecking order
because sailboats, NUC, RAM etc, don't have individual
different signals but the same signal identifying their
grouping.

The whole point, in
fact the letter of the law is that both boats "shall reduce her speed to the minimum at
which she can be kept on
course. She shall if necessary take all her way off and, in any event,
navigate with extreme caution until danger of collision is over."

A sailboat navigating in a fog already is operating at slow and
safe speed. She is operating with extreme caution because
she knows by the signal heard that a motor vessel is on the
prowl and probably going way too fast for the conditions and
relying on her radar way too much so she can keep on schedule.

A sailboat navigating in a fog cannot, like a motorboat, choose
her speed. A sailboat is at the mercy of wind direction and wind
speed which is most often low or non-existent in a fog. Any rule
that requires a sailboat do take an action she cannot take is not
a rule intended to apply to the sailboat.


Please read the rules before commenting further.

The Rules in and of themselves mean nothing. They only
mean something when applied to real life situations on the
water between vessels. One cannot make blanket statements
based on the Rules alone. Every case is different.

Your insistence on saying "all vessels" must slow to a safe speed
does not apply to "all vessels". I proved that a couple of times
with my example of a Coast Guard vessel tied up to and servicing
a navigational aid. Another example would be an anchored vessel.
Yet another would be a vessel being towed. It follows that the Rules
are meant to be a guiding hand to prevent collisions and not a rigid
set of laws to which there are no exceptions or no special
circumstances that make them not appear to be what they seem.

Your outlook is too stringent, rigorous and inflexible. You will
get yourself into trouble because you fail to consider special
circumstances such as sailboats already proceeding at slow
and safe speeds somehow being required to go even slower
to the point where they cannot maneuver with any kind of
efficiency. You even want sailboats to stop when I have
demonstrated this is often not even possible. Rules, as
well-intentioned as they may be, cannot cover all contingencies.
People, when writing rules that are primarily motor boat-oriented,
cannot understand, let alone foresee, any and all circumstances
for sailboats, which boats the operation of they are mostly
ignorant.

In fact, when collisions occur, it is hugely lopsided and the fault
of motor boats the majority of the time. This alone should tell
you that it's motorboaters who should listen to sailors and their
unique perspective and their superior understanding of the actual,
real life workings of the Rules and not vice versa.

Subject: A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/29/2003 06:23 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...

S.Simon wrote:
It does not say take all way off so you stop in the path
of the sailboat. First, the motor vessel is required to
take necessary action to avoid a close quarters situation.


And just how is the powerboat supposed to do this in thick fog, Putz?

The reason for vessels being required to sound fog
signals that identify them is because fog signals enable
vessels to plot a bearing of another vessel.

Typically wrong

Further,
the reason certain vessels (sailboats, NUC, RAM, etc.)
are required to sound a fog signal peculiar to them and
different from a motor vessel is so motor vessels can
not only become aware of bearing but of what class
of vessel is on that bearing.

Typically wrong because incomplete.

So, a motor vessel upon hearing in a fog a signal of
one prolonged and two short blasts knows that the
vessel that made the signal bears whatever degrees

Wrong ....good way to get yourself kilt.

and is a vessel that may not be able to take
action to avoid a collision. The information that
is lacking is range, speed and course of the vessel
making the fog signal. What is known is that motor
vessel must take action early and adequately to
avoid a close quarters situation. Most often the best
way to avoid a close quarters situation is to change
the heading away from a possible close quarters situation
with the vessel that may be unable to do the same by
virtue of the signal it sounds.

Argueably wrong

This means that the best
course of action for a sailboat is to hold course and
speed (which speed is already slow and already safe)
until and unless a close quarters situation develops.
This eliminates variables and allows the motorboat to
make sure it is well clear before it gets back onto its
intended course.

Wrong

This also means that the motor vessel gives way. It
becomes the give-way vessel. Though not specifically
stated in the restricted visibility rules this means there
is a give way vessel created by the Rules for restricted
visibility.

Wrong

This means there is a pecking order also
created, though it is an abbreviated pecking order
because sailboats, NUC, RAM etc, don't have individual
different signals but the same signal identifying their
grouping.

Wrong you typically fail to mention the powerdriven vessel in this mix (more
later)

The whole point, in
fact the letter of the law is that both boats "shall reduce her speed to
the minimum at
which she can be kept on
course. She shall if necessary take all her way off and, in any event,
navigate with extreme caution until danger of collision is over."

A sailboat navigating in a fog already is operating at slow and
safe speed. She is operating with extreme caution because
she knows by the signal heard that a motor vessel is on the
prowl and probably going way too fast for the conditions and
relying on her radar way too much so she can keep on schedule.

A sailboat navigating in a fog cannot, like a motorboat, choose
her speed. A sailboat is at the mercy of wind direction and wind
speed which is most often low or non-existent in a fog. Any rule
that requires a sailboat do take an action she cannot take is not
a rule intended to apply to the sailboat.


ROFL Wrong


Please read the rules before commenting further.

The Rules in and of themselves mean nothing. They only
mean something when applied to real life situations on the
water between vessels. One cannot make blanket statements
based on the Rules alone. Every case is different.

Your insistence on saying "all vessels" must slow to a safe speed
does not apply to "all vessels". I proved that a couple of times
with my example of a Coast Guard vessel tied up to and servicing
a navigational aid. Another example would be an anchored vessel.
Yet another would be a vessel being towed. It follows that the Rules
are meant to be a guiding hand to prevent collisions and not a rigid
set of laws to which there are no exceptions or no special
circumstances that make them not appear to be what they seem.

What a mixmash of gobblede goop the above is.

Your outlook is too stringent, rigorous and inflexible. You will
get yourself into trouble because you fail to consider special
circumstances such as sailboats already proceeding at slow
and safe speeds somehow being required to go even slower
to the point where they cannot maneuver with any kind of
efficiency. You even want sailboats to stop when I have
demonstrated this is often not even possible. Rules, as
well-intentioned as they may be, cannot cover all contingencies.
People, when writing rules that are primarily motor boat-oriented,
cannot understand, let alone foresee, any and all circumstances
for sailboats, which boats the operation of they are mostly
ignorant.

In fact, when collisions occur, it is hugely lopsided and the fault
of motor boats the majority of the time. This alone should tell
you that it's motorboaters who should listen to sailors and their
unique perspective and their superior understanding of the actual,
real life workings of the Rules and not vice versa.


ROFL

Shen

On 29 Jul 2003 22:17:05 GMT, (Shen44) wrote:

much stuff snipped

Shen,
While I value your opinion, it's difficult wading through all the old,
verbose text to read your replies. Could you just list the stuff he got right?

Thanks,

S/V Cat's Meow
http://www.catsmeow.org