A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

Mind if I try? Just talked to Shen and his AOL is typically screwing up
and he can't read any newsgroups.

Simple Simon wrote:
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

I would disagree (but you expected that). I would hoist NUC. Sailing
wise, sails up or down, he is incapable of maneuvering since he is
becalmed. However, since he has an engine,(and assuming it's available
to be used) he should be ready to turn off these lights and light
himself as a powerdriven vessel, if the need arises and he is capable of
immediately starting and using that engine, but he prefers to be a
traditionalist and use sail only when possible.

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way?

A powerdriven vessel, underway (as long as the engine is capable of
immediate maneuver)

I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

See above

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

Will be interested in seeing this "trap"

otn

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

I don't see any replies yet . . .

He he! I've got 'em on the run. I can see them
now flipping thru the pages of the Rules, scratching
their heads and muttering, "What's he up to? We
gotta get this one right. He's already made us look
bad on numerous occasions. We can't let him
continue to make us look stupid. Etc. etc.

Go ahead, gentlemen. Shake in your boots like
Janet Reno on speed. I don't blame you one bit.

S.Simon


"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way? I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

EG.....look before you leap

Simple Simon wrote:
I don't see any replies yet . . .

He he! I've got 'em on the run. I can see them
now flipping thru the pages of the Rules, scratching
their heads and muttering, "What's he up to? We
gotta get this one right. He's already made us look
bad on numerous occasions. We can't let him
continue to make us look stupid. Etc. etc.

Go ahead, gentlemen. Shake in your boots like
Janet Reno on speed. I don't blame you one bit.

S.Simon


"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...

Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way? I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message k.net...
Mind if I try? Just talked to Shen and his AOL is typically screwing up
and he can't read any newsgroups.

Simple Simon wrote:
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

I would disagree (but you expected that). I would hoist NUC.

Not under command means some failure of mechanical systems
that means the vessel cannot maneuver. Lack of wind is not
such a circumstance. No, I think even Jeff and Shen44 would
agree with me that NUC is not applicable here



Sailing
wise, sails up or down, he is incapable of maneuvering since he is
becalmed. However, since he has an engine,(and assuming it's available
to be used) he should be ready to turn off these lights and light
himself as a powerdriven vessel, if the need arises and he is capable of
immediately starting and using that engine, but he prefers to be a
traditionalist and use sail only when possible.

I would agree with you here. I recall there is a rule that in restricted
vis. a vessel should have her engine ready for emergency use. I
suppose it would be prudent and seamanlike to have it ready to
go even if visibility was not resticted.


Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way?

A powerdriven vessel, underway (as long as the engine is capable of
immediate maneuver)

I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

See above

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

Will be interested in seeing this "trap"

otn

You will see it when the jaws slam shut on your
buddies. (If they give the wrong answers) Part
of the trap is at least one of my opinions above
is a ruse to lead them astray.

S.Simon

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

Thanks for your answer but I'm not letting Shen44 and
Jeff let you do their dirty work for them and be the
fall guy for their being a little afraid to participate.

I'll give them till tomorrow at about this time to
get their acts together then I'll handle you all
at the same time. Three motorboaters against
one sailor is about even odds, don't you think?


"otnmbrd" wrote in message k.net...
Mind if I try? Just talked to Shen and his AOL is typically screwing up
and he can't read any newsgroups.

Simple Simon wrote:
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

I would disagree (but you expected that). I would hoist NUC. Sailing
wise, sails up or down, he is incapable of maneuvering since he is
becalmed. However, since he has an engine,(and assuming it's available
to be used) he should be ready to turn off these lights and light
himself as a powerdriven vessel, if the need arises and he is capable of
immediately starting and using that engine, but he prefers to be a
traditionalist and use sail only when possible.

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way?

A powerdriven vessel, underway (as long as the engine is capable of
immediate maneuver)

I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

See above

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

Will be interested in seeing this "trap"

otn

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

Simple Simon wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message k.net...

Mind if I try? Just talked to Shen and his AOL is typically screwing up
and he can't read any newsgroups.

Simple Simon wrote:

Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

I would disagree (but you expected that). I would hoist NUC.


Not under command means some failure of mechanical systems
that means the vessel cannot maneuver. Lack of wind is not
such a circumstance. No, I think even Jeff and Shen44 would
agree with me that NUC is not applicable here

Suggest you re-read what NUC means.




Sailing
wise, sails up or down, he is incapable of maneuvering since he is
becalmed. However, since he has an engine,(and assuming it's available
to be used) he should be ready to turn off these lights and light
himself as a powerdriven vessel, if the need arises and he is capable of
immediately starting and using that engine, but he prefers to be a
traditionalist and use sail only when possible.


I would agree with you here. I recall there is a rule that in restricted
vis. a vessel should have her engine ready for emergency use. I
suppose it would be prudent and seamanlike to have it ready to
go even if visibility was not resticted.

LOL...You really don't know the rules, do you?


Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way?

First off, "not making way" is basically immaterial. However, I just
noticed that the jib is a "wind-up", which means it "may" be available
for immediate use. In this case, the boat could leave it's lights for
powerdriven, on,(if the engine was immediately available) but if he
decides to use the jib then he would have to change to "sail"

A powerdriven vessel, underway (as long as the engine is capable of
immediate maneuver)

I say it is a motor boat with

motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

See above

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

Will be interested in seeing this "trap"

otn


You will see it when the jaws slam shut on your
buddies. (If they give the wrong answers) Part
of the trap is at least one of my opinions above
is a ruse to lead them astray.

S.Simon

ROFL

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

I'm not sure I want to play this game since you've already said you have laid a trap for
us. However, I'll toss out a few thoughts.

First of all, you've posed two essentially identical situations that have different
histories. You claim that the appropriate lights are based on what transpired at some
point in the distant past. I don't think that is an appropriate basis for answering the
question "which lights should be used?" I'm not saying the one is right and the other is
wrong, I saying that if one, or the other, lights are OK they would be OK for either case.

It is not clear to be that there is a hard and fast answer. Before I get into that, let
me point out that there are a number of situations explicitly not covered in the rules.
An infinite number, actually, when you consider that there is virtually no mention of the
possibility of more than two vessels. Further, there are a variety of craft not
discussed - where to row boats fit in the pecking order? Other vague issues - is a
disabled boat a NUC if it isn't displaying NUC signals? What if it displays obvious signs
that it is disabled? How does moving astern alter the rules? I've wondered about the
issue of sidelights - is it proper to have red/green lights if you're drifting randomly?
These issues, and all others not explicitly covered in other rules, fall under Rule 2. It
is the responsibility of the various vessels to figure it out and act in a prudent manner.

But back to the specific case. Is a sailboat with the sails furled still a sailboat?
Technically no, because it is not "under sail." Is it a powerboat? Maybe, if it does
have an engine. As an aside, a sailboat must start the engine if the circumstances
requires it. Is it row boat? Maybe - Canadian Law requires, IIRC, a means of alternative
propulsion. What about a sailboat making way under bare poles - is that sailing? I don't
think a becalmed aux sailboat can claim to be a NUC, since it could comply with the rules
if it turned on the engine. Further, being becalmed is a natural part of sailing. But
this gets into another subtlety - if you claim to be a NUC (mistakenly, but in good faith)
is the other boat bound to honor that? Yes, but the courts haven't looked too kindly on
this sort of thing.

The point of this is that this is a grey area, that would probably really fall under Rule
2. Then, assuming that ended up in the courts, the standard becomes the "ordinary
practice of seamen."

So, what would I do in this case? I believe that its appropriate to look at this from the
point of view of the other observer. When one sees a drift fishing powerboat, one
presumes it is still capable of powering - there is not way to determine if the engine is
on or off. Thus, it must act with that status. Likewise, when one sees a boat sailing,
one must assume it is a sailboat, unless it quite obviously is really powering. So what
if you see a sailboat with the sail down? I am inclined to think that the observer should
not presume that a sailboat is really a powerboat because it can't see a sail. Maybe
there is a sail, but at an angle where it can't be seen. Thus, the observer should treat
it as a sailboat. Further, I don't think its appropriate for the sailboat to display the
steaming light if its engine is not immediately available. By doing so the sailboat is
saying, "I am prepared to act like a powerboat." If the engine is not warmed up, this is
not the case. So I would have to say that the status of the boat should be "sailboat,"
even though its not under sail. The only real support for this position is that rowboats
are allowed to display the same lights as a sailboat, implying that this is appropriate
for boats that are not truly anything else.

But there's a whole other side to this: is it appropriate for a sailboat to lower sails
and drift, especially at night? I've done it during the day - especially at regattas
waiting for a race to start, but never at night. Depending of course, on the location,
this doesn't feel like it is proper seamanship - when I don't want to go anywhere, I
anchor. Whenever I want to drift at night (July 4th comes to mind) I keep an engine
running, and display the steaming light. So my bottom line answer has to be: its not
proper to get into this situation, but if you must, don't display lights for a powerboat
if you're not prepared to act like one.

And at the end of the day, the judge will say either "that's what I would have done" or
"what a Putz!"


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)

P.S. What about sea anchors and heaving to?



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way? I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

Good answers but not what I was looking for. You should
have gone to law school. You obfuscate better than you
navigate.

Here's the facts. (you should have been able to think of them for yourself)

Fact 1) An auxiliary sailboat is always a sailboat unless
and until the motor is turned on.
Fact 2) An auxiliary sailboat is never wrong when running
the lights required for a sailboat unless and until
the motor is turned on.
Fact3) An auxiliary sailboat can never legally be made to
turn its engine on and become a motor boat.
Fact 4) An auxiliary sailboat does not need to have installed
the lights for a motor vessel unless and until it
turns on the motor.
Fact 5) Anybody who claims an auxiliary sailboat must have
the lights of a motor vessel in addition to the masthead
tricolor is clearly wrong considering the above facts.

Now, here comes the kicker. Since an aux. sailboat is a sailboat
until the motor is turned on the sailboat must sound the fog signal
of a sailboat in restricted visibility provided the motor remains off.

It just so happens that this sound signal is also that of a NUC, RAM,
etc. This means that any motor vessel hearing the required signal
knows that according to the Rules it shall take action early and
adequately to avoid a close quarters situation. If a close quarters
situation eventuates it is solely the motor vessel's fault for not
fulfilling its obligations under the Rules. The sailboat has not
violated any Rule to cause the close quarters situation. The motor
vessel has.

It follows that the motor vessel is the give way vessel because it
must give way in restricted vis. to the audible signal of those vessels
it knows are above it in the pecking order. You have tried to claim
there is no pecking order in restricted vis. but there clearly is a
pecking order because the motor vessel knows when it hears the
sound signal of a sailboat, NUC, RAM etc. that a vessel is in the
area with which the motor vessel must avoid a close quarters situation.

There clearly IS a pecking order and hence there IS, by definition,
a stand-on vessel and a give-way vessel in restricted vis.

Case closed, you, Shen44 and otnmbrd lose!


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
I'm not sure I want to play this game since you've already said you have laid a trap for
us. However, I'll toss out a few thoughts.

First of all, you've posed two essentially identical situations that have different
histories. You claim that the appropriate lights are based on what transpired at some
point in the distant past. I don't think that is an appropriate basis for answering the
question "which lights should be used?" I'm not saying the one is right and the other is
wrong, I saying that if one, or the other, lights are OK they would be OK for either case.

It is not clear to be that there is a hard and fast answer. Before I get into that, let
me point out that there are a number of situations explicitly not covered in the rules.
An infinite number, actually, when you consider that there is virtually no mention of the
possibility of more than two vessels. Further, there are a variety of craft not
discussed - where to row boats fit in the pecking order? Other vague issues - is a
disabled boat a NUC if it isn't displaying NUC signals? What if it displays obvious signs
that it is disabled? How does moving astern alter the rules? I've wondered about the
issue of sidelights - is it proper to have red/green lights if you're drifting randomly?
These issues, and all others not explicitly covered in other rules, fall under Rule 2. It
is the responsibility of the various vessels to figure it out and act in a prudent manner.

But back to the specific case. Is a sailboat with the sails furled still a sailboat?
Technically no, because it is not "under sail." Is it a powerboat? Maybe, if it does
have an engine. As an aside, a sailboat must start the engine if the circumstances
requires it. Is it row boat? Maybe - Canadian Law requires, IIRC, a means of alternative
propulsion. What about a sailboat making way under bare poles - is that sailing? I don't
think a becalmed aux sailboat can claim to be a NUC, since it could comply with the rules
if it turned on the engine. Further, being becalmed is a natural part of sailing. But
this gets into another subtlety - if you claim to be a NUC (mistakenly, but in good faith)
is the other boat bound to honor that? Yes, but the courts haven't looked too kindly on
this sort of thing.

The point of this is that this is a grey area, that would probably really fall under Rule
2. Then, assuming that ended up in the courts, the standard becomes the "ordinary
practice of seamen."

So, what would I do in this case? I believe that its appropriate to look at this from the
point of view of the other observer. When one sees a drift fishing powerboat, one
presumes it is still capable of powering - there is not way to determine if the engine is
on or off. Thus, it must act with that status. Likewise, when one sees a boat sailing,
one must assume it is a sailboat, unless it quite obviously is really powering. So what
if you see a sailboat with the sail down? I am inclined to think that the observer should
not presume that a sailboat is really a powerboat because it can't see a sail. Maybe
there is a sail, but at an angle where it can't be seen. Thus, the observer should treat
it as a sailboat. Further, I don't think its appropriate for the sailboat to display the
steaming light if its engine is not immediately available. By doing so the sailboat is
saying, "I am prepared to act like a powerboat." If the engine is not warmed up, this is
not the case. So I would have to say that the status of the boat should be "sailboat,"
even though its not under sail. The only real support for this position is that rowboats
are allowed to display the same lights as a sailboat, implying that this is appropriate
for boats that are not truly anything else.

But there's a whole other side to this: is it appropriate for a sailboat to lower sails
and drift, especially at night? I've done it during the day - especially at regattas
waiting for a race to start, but never at night. Depending of course, on the location,
this doesn't feel like it is proper seamanship - when I don't want to go anywhere, I
anchor. Whenever I want to drift at night (July 4th comes to mind) I keep an engine
running, and display the steaming light. So my bottom line answer has to be: its not
proper to get into this situation, but if you must, don't display lights for a powerboat
if you're not prepared to act like one.

And at the end of the day, the judge will say either "that's what I would have done" or
"what a Putz!"


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)

P.S. What about sea anchors and heaving to?



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way? I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
I'm not sure if you have some special spin on the phrase "legally made to", but if your
refusal to start the engine when it was clearly appropriate caused an accident, you could
be wholy liable.

Not so. Since an engine is NOT a requirement a working engine is also
not a requirement. All one need claim is the engine would not start and
one would be in the clear. There is no legal requirement to have a working
engine on a sailboat.

Fact 4) An auxiliary sailboat does not need to have installed
the lights for a motor vessel unless and until it
turns on the motor.

True. It also doesn't need lights during the day in good visibility. Running lights are
not "required equipment," but their appropriate use is. What's the point?

The point is your statement about Bobsprit's boat needing lower
running lights in addition to any masthead tricolor he might install
is totally wrong.


Fact 5) Anybody who claims an auxiliary sailboat must have
the lights of a motor vessel in addition to the masthead
tricolor is clearly wrong considering the above facts.


"Must"? Clearly not. So what's the point? You're not required to have any lights. But
failure to have them limits your options.

You are required to some sort of legal lights to
operate legally at night. Bobsprit does not need
to have lower running lights in addition to the
masthead tricolor as you stated in order for him
to operate at night. He can sail at night his whole
life with tricolor only and be legal.


It just so happens that this sound signal is also that of a NUC, RAM,
etc. This means that any motor vessel hearing the required signal
knows that according to the Rules it shall take action early and
adequately to avoid a close quarters situation.

Rule 19 doesn't differentiate between signals - ALL vessels must respond to ALL signals!
Did you ever even read the rules?

Yes, and the way a motor vessel responds to the signal
of a saiboat, NUC, RAM etc. in restricted visibility
is to take action early and adequately to avoid a close
quarters situation.

The proper response of a sailboat upon hearing the fog signal
of a motor vessel is to maintain course and heading and slow
down or change course only if a danger of collision exists
because the motor vessel fails to take the appropriate action
stated above. In other words the sailboat stands on until
it becomes clear that continuing to do so will result in
a collision because the motor vessel did not follow the
Rules that apply to motor vessels.

If a close quarters
situation eventuates it is solely the motor vessel's fault for not
fulfilling its obligations under the Rules. The sailboat has not
violated any Rule to cause the close quarters situation. The motor
vessel has.

If your point is that with the sail down the aux does not have to get out of the way of
the powerboat, this is correct. However, if the situations were reversed, i.e. in the
fog: a powerboat stopped, and a sailboat at full speed, it now becomes the sailboat's
responsibility to avoid the powerboat.

This is totally incorrect. A motor vessel underway but not making way
is still obligated to stay clear of a sailboat and not cause a close quarters
situation. It has a motor and it must use that motor to keep clear. The
only exception is if the motor vessel is higher in the pecking order than
the sailboat, i.e. NUC, RAM, etc. According to your silly statement any
motor vessel could stop in the path of a sailboat on purpose and it would
be the sailboat's responsibility to keep clear. Wrong. The sailboat is
the stand-on vessel and must maintain course and speed. The motor vessel
must take action early and adequately to avoid a close quarters situation.

What pecking order? There's no pecking order in Restricted Visibility. Anyone who
actually passed the test would know this.

You have tried to claim
there is no pecking order in restricted vis. but there clearly is a
pecking order because the motor vessel knows when it hears the
sound signal of a sailboat, NUC, RAM etc. that a vessel is in the
area with which the motor vessel must avoid a close quarters situation.

The concept of "pecking order" implies a priority that the rules explicitly say does not
exist. "ALL VESSELS ... MUST REDUCE SPEED" It is true that sounding the "other" signal

You seem to ignore Rule 6 which talks about safe speed.

RULE 6

Safe Speed

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she

can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped

within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and

conditions.


Reducing speed to zero for a sailboat is not operating at
a safe speed.

All vessels must reduce speed applies only to those vessels
having speed to reduce. A sailboat going along at two or three
knots in a fog does not fit the definition. It it reduces speed any
more than it will not be operating at a safe speed as required
by Rule 6

A Coast Guard vessel tied up to and repairing an aid to navigation
is in the category of "all vessels" and you are trying to say it must
reduce speed? It can't reduce speed because it has no speed to reduce.
The same goes for a sailboat. There is no way a sailboat can
reduce speed to zero. Even if it lets the sails shake, rattle and
roll it still will be making some way either forwards, backwards
or sideways, furthermore it will not be operating at a safe speed
as required.

Again you attempt to make a sailboat adhere to rules that are
meant only for motor vessels that can use their powerful
engines and thrusters to stop dead in the water.

conveys additional information that indicates extra caution is needed; it does NOT give a
vessel standon status.

I'm sorry if you are too stubborn to understand it but
when a motor vessel is required by the Rules to take
action early and adequately to avoid a close quarters
situation with any vessel signaling it is a sailboat, NUC,
RAM in restricted visibility then that means by definition
that the motor vessel is the give-way vessel. Taking action
to avoid a close quarters situation is giving way. It doesn't
get any simpler than that.

There clearly IS a pecking order and hence there IS, by definition,
a stand-on vessel and a give-way vessel in restricted vis.

The fact that one vessel should exercise special caution doesn't make the other vessel
"standon."

I'm not talking about special caution. I am talking about
a motor vessels obligation to avoid a close quarters
situation with a sailboat, NUC, RAM, etc. in a fog

Yes, it does make a pecking order. Taking action early
and adequately to avoid a close quarters situation is giving way.
Giving way means the vessel giving way is the give way vessel.

I achieved a higher score than you did because I understand the
Rules. I know the expected answers but the expected answers
don't cover the above situations with a sailboat in a fog.

You should be ashamed for being so closed-minded that
you refuse to believe what is so evident.

I think you need a good flogging at the mast!

A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
 

You are required to some sort of legal lights to
operate legally at night. Bobsprit does not need
to have lower running lights in addition to the
masthead tricolor as you stated in order for him
to operate at night. He can sail at night his whole
life with tricolor only and be legal.

Thanks, neal. I checked on this and found you're right. Not surprising that
Jeff got it wrong.
I intend to install the masthed set, and keep the originals as a "spare."

RB