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Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
I've got more than enough time on the water in my fine
vessels both offshore and nearshore to renew easily. I won't have to retake any test questions but even if I did it would be no problem because I know all the answers by virtue of my superior understanding of the COLREGS. What you have yet to learn is a superior understanding of the Rules comes only after years of study and years of practical application in a small sailing vessel. Sitting in a wheelhouse on some big ship sheltered from the wind, the waves, normal ocean sounds and sights simply gives you a case of the 'armchair motorboater's syndrome" which results in impaired sensory input, impaired reaction, impaired application of the Rules and impaired responsibility. Being on the receiving end of motorboater ignorance and arrogance of which you, Shen44, and Jeff Morris display and abundance, is the best way to learn the ins and outs of the Rules provided one can survive your attempts to run us down. I have survived and I shall continue to survive and learn. I welcome all your displays of ignorance because they allow me to become stronger and safer since I know how the levels of ignorance upon which you all proceed impair your judgment and required action. I realize you three don't have a clue what 'shall not impede' means because you have proven you are all clueless. I realize you will persist in impeding vessels you are supposed to give a wide berth in any condition of visibility and this makes you all the more dangerous in restricted visibility. I know your pride does not allow you to believe that motorboats must give way to any and all vessels signaling one prolonged/two short blasts in a fog. I know you will wrongly interpret the Rules so you will end up violating them by creating a close quarters situation in your ignorance. Thank God I know all this or I would have been run down by your like years ago. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... Simple Simon wrote: "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... LOL NO, you have attempted to use only those parts of the rules that some might find agreement with, to no avail, in a vain attempt to prove your point ....and we all note that you still and always fail to address the issue of the tugboat Shen described and your sailboat making the same signal which blows away your malarkey about some bogus pecking order. Why is that Neal? Cause he can't It is hardly vain to prove a point using the wording of the Rules themselves. That you cannot accept that Rule 8 paragraph (f) (i) disproves the concept that 'shall not impede' is a term used only in narrow channels defeats your argument, not mine. It supports my argument and is at the heart of the matter when it comes to pecking order. LOL Never thought or said it did apply to narrow channels only. It also applies to Traffic Separation Schemes and "vessels constrained by draft". What does that have to do with Shen's tugboat and your sailboat meeting in fog? As per usual, you have not, can not, and will not address the issue of Shen's tugboat (except with the bogus ploy about RAM) and your sailboat, in fog, with out radar, and what that situation does to your "pecking order". You also can't explain how a vessel in fog can take early and substantial action, when they don't have a clue as to what action they can take or if any action is necessary. The tugboat issue has no bearing on anything other than Shen44's lack of knowledge. A tugboat only sounds a one prolonged/two short blast signal if the tugboat is a RAM and is displayiing the lights and shapes of a RAM. Show me where the "rules" say that ..... don't waste your time, you can't .... No...waste your time. Show all of us where the rules say a tugboat pushing or towing is normally RAM (you've tried that statement in the past) or that a tugboat must be RAM to sound one prolong followed by two short.....show us all....even YOU can't twist the wording of the rules to show that. PS I've got a bet with Shen, that there is NO WAY you will Ever address his scenario of the tugboat in fog, versus your sailboat and the pecking order, stand on condition you say exist .... Ya see, I don't think you're quite that stupid....he, on the other hand...... You just lost that bet. Ha ha a hh a ha ha hah ah ah h ah ah ! LOL you didn't address any part of it, you just typically tried to dance around the edges with the stupid RAM ploy. NOPE, goes down as a typical lame attempt. ROFL can't do it, can ya? Every angle you look at it, consequently blows all your arguments about fog and pecking order into the trash bin. When's your next renewal? Since I doubt you'll be able to show any time on license, I bet you'll have to take the open book rules test. Hope you got lotsa money so you can buy up all the questions and answers, cause without them, you'll never pass even the open book. otn |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
"Shen44" wrote in message Come on Neal, give it a woil .... at least try one of your "out of context" babbling sessions on it and forget the RAM ploy, cause that doesn't work with anyone. RAM ploy? Haaaa ha hahah h a hahahahahahha ha h! You are the one with the ploy in your lame attempt to try to make me believe a lie so I might look foolish. It won't work. A motorboat towing sounds the signal of a motor vessel unless the motorboat towing is restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM). The only time a vessel towing is allow to sound the one prolonged/ two short blasts fog signal is if the towboat is a RAM. If and only if the towboat is showing lights or shapes of a RAM can it sound the signal of a RAM. (legally speaking that is - you in your ignorance might feel differently and have probably done differently.) This makes no difference in the abbreviated pecking order which I have written about and which, in fact, exists by virtue of the shall not impede clause of Rule 8. The fact still remains that vessels sounding the one prolong blast fog signal or even the two prolonged blast fog signal must not impede any vessel sounding the one prolonged/two short blast fog signal. The Rules require it. |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
"Shen44" wrote in message ... ubject: Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 06:46 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Shall not impede applies in a broader sense than in narrow channels. It is stated in Rule 8 --- paracraph (f) (i) and prefaced by the statement 'by any of these rules' which means it is not limited to narrow channel situations. Shall not impede applies to the pecking order. LOL seems to me, YOU are the only one making any mention of "shall not impede", as applying only to "narrow channels". The rest of us know it applies to Traffic separation as well as CBD. Expand your understanding still farther to all circumstances where the term 'searoom' applies and you will finally come up to my superior understanding of the English language. You seem to think that 'shall not impede' applies under limited circumstances. On the contrary, Rule 8 proves 'shall not impede' is a broad term that can be used specifically in the instances you mentioned but is actually and in fact a broader term that can be used in any circumstance where the term 'searoom' applies which means at sea because searoom applies at sea. S.Simon |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
As expected, just another typical diatribe which in no way addresses the
issues at hand. Admit it SS .... you can't answer the question about the tug. As for time on your boat counting for renewal ..... sorry .....doesn't ..... your license is for a powerdriven vessel of a certain tonnage .... you sure you still have that license? Didn't let it lapse didja? Still don't know what "impede" refers to, do ya? Ah well, don't despair, you don't understand the rest of the rules either, so at least you're consistent. otn Simple Simon wrote: I've got more than enough time on the water in my fine vessels both offshore and nearshore to renew easily. I won't have to retake any test questions but even if I did it would be no problem because I know all the answers by virtue of my superior understanding of the COLREGS. What you have yet to learn is a superior understanding of the Rules comes only after years of study and years of practical application in a small sailing vessel. Sitting in a wheelhouse on some big ship sheltered from the wind, the waves, normal ocean sounds and sights simply gives you a case of the 'armchair motorboater's syndrome" which results in impaired sensory input, impaired reaction, impaired application of the Rules and impaired responsibility. Being on the receiving end of motorboater ignorance and arrogance of which you, Shen44, and Jeff Morris display and abundance, is the best way to learn the ins and outs of the Rules provided one can survive your attempts to run us down. I have survived and I shall continue to survive and learn. I welcome all your displays of ignorance because they allow me to become stronger and safer since I know how the levels of ignorance upon which you all proceed impair your judgment and required action. I realize you three don't have a clue what 'shall not impede' means because you have proven you are all clueless. I realize you will persist in impeding vessels you are supposed to give a wide berth in any condition of visibility and this makes you all the more dangerous in restricted visibility. I know your pride does not allow you to believe that motorboats must give way to any and all vessels signaling one prolonged/two short blasts in a fog. I know you will wrongly interpret the Rules so you will end up violating them by creating a close quarters situation in your ignorance. Thank God I know all this or I would have been run down by your like years ago. S.Simon ROFL you couldn't answer ONE question, or address ONE issue, couldya ...... just a bunch of garbage ..... |
Simon's superior understanding
Impede means to interfere with the progress of.
A vessel that shall not impede is mandated by the Rules to not interfere with the progress of another vessel. This is so simple I'm surprised you had to ask. Something this basic is child's play for an experienced Master mariner such as yours truly. When a Rule states that a vessel shall not impede and allow plenty of searoom then I know the rule means one vessel should not interfere with the progress of another and shall provide plenty of searoom to the vessel it shall not impede. In other words the give-way vessel shall not impede the stand-on vessel in any way at any time and yes, even at sea where searoom exists. S.Simon. "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... As expected, just another typical diatribe which in no way addresses the issues at hand. Admit it SS .... you can't answer the question about the tug. As for time on your boat counting for renewal ..... sorry .....doesn't .... your license is for a powerdriven vessel of a certain tonnage .... you sure you still have that license? Didn't let it lapse didja? Still don't know what "impede" refers to, do ya? Ah well, don't despair, you don't understand the rest of the rules either, so at least you're consistent. otn Simple Simon wrote: I've got more than enough time on the water in my fine vessels both offshore and nearshore to renew easily. I won't have to retake any test questions but even if I did it would be no problem because I know all the answers by virtue of my superior understanding of the COLREGS. What you have yet to learn is a superior understanding of the Rules comes only after years of study and years of practical application in a small sailing vessel. Sitting in a wheelhouse on some big ship sheltered from the wind, the waves, normal ocean sounds and sights simply gives you a case of the 'armchair motorboater's syndrome" which results in impaired sensory input, impaired reaction, impaired application of the Rules and impaired responsibility. Being on the receiving end of motorboater ignorance and arrogance of which you, Shen44, and Jeff Morris display and abundance, is the best way to learn the ins and outs of the Rules provided one can survive your attempts to run us down. I have survived and I shall continue to survive and learn. I welcome all your displays of ignorance because they allow me to become stronger and safer since I know how the levels of ignorance upon which you all proceed impair your judgment and required action. I realize you three don't have a clue what 'shall not impede' means because you have proven you are all clueless. I realize you will persist in impeding vessels you are supposed to give a wide berth in any condition of visibility and this makes you all the more dangerous in restricted visibility. I know your pride does not allow you to believe that motorboats must give way to any and all vessels signaling one prolonged/two short blasts in a fog. I know you will wrongly interpret the Rules so you will end up violating them by creating a close quarters situation in your ignorance. Thank God I know all this or I would have been run down by your like years ago. S.Simon ROFL you couldn't answer ONE question, or address ONE issue, couldya ..... just a bunch of garbage ..... |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
Subject: Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
From: "Simple Simon" Shall not impede applies in a broader sense than in narrow channels. It is stated in Rule 8 --- paracraph (f) (i) and prefaced by the statement 'by any of these rules' which means it is not limited to narrow channel situations. Shall not impede applies to the pecking order. LOL seems to me, YOU are the only one making any mention of "shall not impede", as applying only to "narrow channels". The rest of us know it applies to Traffic separation as well as CBD. Expand your understanding still farther to all circumstances where the term 'searoom' applies and you will finally come up to my superior understanding of the English language. You sure that was "English" you Majored in, and not "Gibberish"? Anyone who reads the rules and comes up with the idea that a tugboat, towing or pushing can only sound one prolong followed by two short, in fog, if they are also RAM, has to either be speaking gibberish and mis translating or not have much of a brain to start with. How DO you come up with these interpretations? You seem to think that 'shall not impede' applies under limited circumstances. On the contrary, Rule 8 proves 'shall not impede' is a broad term that can be used specifically in the instances you mentioned but is actually and in fact a broader term that can be used in any circumstance where the term 'searoom' applies which means at sea because searoom applies at sea. Haven't got much of a historical background, have you. Searoom can be applied at sea and in a narrow channel. The idea ius to know the context of the term and how it is applied .... something beyond your limited reasoning capabilities. Shen |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
You are wrong and you continue to be wrong because you attempt to defend an erroneous position that cannot be defended. S.Simon ...... and you continue to fail to attempt to defend your position on the tug boat by claiming some "fact" which doesn't exist and doing a dance all around the bloody mulberry bush and never touching on any of the issues. Shen |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
Like I said, a tugboat is only a motor boat and enjoys
no special status unless and until it becomes restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM) at which time it must show the shapes and lights of a RAM as well as any other lights required by the Rules. When the tugboat is a RAM then it must sound the fog signal of a RAM. I fail to see why you seem to think there is some special circumstance involved here. "Shen44" wrote in message ... ..... and you continue to fail to attempt to defend your position on the tug boat by claiming some "fact" which doesn't exist and doing a dance all around the bloody mulberry bush and never touching on any of the issues. Shen |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
One entry found for sea room in Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: sea room Function: noun Date: circa 1554 : room for maneuver at sea "Shen44" wrote in message ... Subject: Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion From: "Simple Simon" Shall not impede applies in a broader sense than in narrow channels. It is stated in Rule 8 --- paracraph (f) (i) and prefaced by the statement 'by any of these rules' which means it is not limited to narrow channel situations. Shall not impede applies to the pecking order. LOL seems to me, YOU are the only one making any mention of "shall not impede", as applying only to "narrow channels". The rest of us know it applies to Traffic separation as well as CBD. Expand your understanding still farther to all circumstances where the term 'searoom' applies and you will finally come up to my superior understanding of the English language. You sure that was "English" you Majored in, and not "Gibberish"? Anyone who reads the rules and comes up with the idea that a tugboat, towing or pushing can only sound one prolong followed by two short, in fog, if they are also RAM, has to either be speaking gibberish and mis translating or not have much of a brain to start with. How DO you come up with these interpretations? You seem to think that 'shall not impede' applies under limited circumstances. On the contrary, Rule 8 proves 'shall not impede' is a broad term that can be used specifically in the instances you mentioned but is actually and in fact a broader term that can be used in any circumstance where the term 'searoom' applies which means at sea because searoom applies at sea. Haven't got much of a historical background, have you. Searoom can be applied at sea and in a narrow channel. The idea ius to know the context of the term and how it is applied .... something beyond your limited reasoning capabilities. Shen |
Simon's superior understanding
Simple Simon wrote: Impede means to interfere with the progress of. Oh good. Now apply that meaning to the way the term is used in the rules and under the conditions it is applied. A vessel that shall not impede is mandated by the Rules to not interfere with the progress of another vessel. This is so simple I'm surprised you had to ask. Something this basic is child's play for an experienced Master mariner such as yours truly. If it's such childs play and you are so experienced, why do you continue to screw up it's usage when the term is used and applied to the "Rules of the Road"? When a Rule states that a vessel shall not impede and allow plenty of searoom then I know the rule means one vessel should not interfere with the progress of another and shall provide plenty of searoom to the vessel it shall not impede. In other words the give-way vessel shall not impede the stand-on vessel in any way at any time and yes, even at sea where searoom exists. EG Actually you were doing pretty good, up until the last paragraph .... had to keep talking. Since the subject of this post is "Shall not impede".... Rule 8.(f)(iii) (oops you keep forgetting about this, don't you? keeps getting in the way of your other so called arguments). So ..... Are you also saying, that since The "impede" statute applies in narrow channels, that "searoom" also applies in narrow channels? otn S.Simon. "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... As expected, just another typical diatribe which in no way addresses the issues at hand. Admit it SS .... you can't answer the question about the tug. As for time on your boat counting for renewal ..... sorry .....doesn't .... your license is for a powerdriven vessel of a certain tonnage .... you sure you still have that license? Didn't let it lapse didja? Still don't know what "impede" refers to, do ya? Ah well, don't despair, you don't understand the rest of the rules either, so at least you're consistent. otn Simple Simon wrote: I've got more than enough time on the water in my fine vessels both offshore and nearshore to renew easily. I won't have to retake any test questions but even if I did it would be no problem because I know all the answers by virtue of my superior understanding of the COLREGS. What you have yet to learn is a superior understanding of the Rules comes only after years of study and years of practical application in a small sailing vessel. Sitting in a wheelhouse on some big ship sheltered from the wind, the waves, normal ocean sounds and sights simply gives you a case of the 'armchair motorboater's syndrome" which results in impaired sensory input, impaired reaction, impaired application of the Rules and impaired responsibility. Being on the receiving end of motorboater ignorance and arrogance of which you, Shen44, and Jeff Morris display and abundance, is the best way to learn the ins and outs of the Rules provided one can survive your attempts to run us down. I have survived and I shall continue to survive and learn. I welcome all your displays of ignorance because they allow me to become stronger and safer since I know how the levels of ignorance upon which you all proceed impair your judgment and required action. I realize you three don't have a clue what 'shall not impede' means because you have proven you are all clueless. I realize you will persist in impeding vessels you are supposed to give a wide berth in any condition of visibility and this makes you all the more dangerous in restricted visibility. I know your pride does not allow you to believe that motorboats must give way to any and all vessels signaling one prolonged/two short blasts in a fog. I know you will wrongly interpret the Rules so you will end up violating them by creating a close quarters situation in your ignorance. Thank God I know all this or I would have been run down by your like years ago. S.Simon ROFL you couldn't answer ONE question, or address ONE issue, couldya ..... just a bunch of garbage ..... |
Simon's superior understanding
See my posts to that fool Shen44 who had the
cheek to argue with me the definition of searoom. Searoom does NOT apply to narrow channels because there is no such thing as searoom in narrow channels by definition. "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... So ..... Are you also saying, that since The "impede" statute applies in narrow channels, that "searoom" also applies in narrow channels? |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
One entry found for sea room in Merriam Webster: Main Entry: sea room Function: noun Date: circa 1554 : room for maneuver at sea As stated earlier and expected, your historical background regarding anything to do with boats and boating is limited. The term has been and can be applied to any condition at sea or inshore. Shen |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
ubject: Simon rules - Rules discussion
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 13:30 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Like I said, a tugboat is only a motor boat and enjoys no special status unless and until it becomes restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM) at which time it must show the shapes and lights of a RAM as well as any other lights required by the Rules. When the tugboat is a RAM then it must sound the fog signal of a RAM. Hey Simple. I realize you have a problem reading and comprehending English, but even you should be able to understand this ..... SHOW ME where the rules state the above. Mind you now, we are talking about a tugboat engaged in towing astern or pushing ahead or alongside in fog. SHOW ME where the rules say that this vessel is RAM or must be RAM to sound one prolong followed by two short when in fog. I fail to see why you seem to think there is some special circumstance involved here. I fail; to see how you could arrive at the point of believing that I have said there is a special circumstance. This is a simple rule that states which vessels shall blow a specific whistle signal in fog and I fail to see how someone, even with your limited intelligence, reading comprehension and experience can fail to understand it. Shen |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
Wrongly applied to be sure. One must use words
according to their definition if language is to have any meaning at all. Simply making up usage to comply with your beliefs does not make it so. Sorry Mr. Shen you lose again. S.Simon "Shen44" wrote in message ... The term has been and can be applied to any condition at sea or inshore. |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
Look for my answer to otnmbrd. He already asked
me for the Rules that apply and I listed them. I see no need to repeat them to you here. Both of you are equally ignorant so answering one of you should suffice as an answer to both of you. "Shen44" wrote in message ... ubject: Simon rules - Rules discussion From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 13:30 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Like I said, a tugboat is only a motor boat and enjoys no special status unless and until it becomes restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM) at which time it must show the shapes and lights of a RAM as well as any other lights required by the Rules. When the tugboat is a RAM then it must sound the fog signal of a RAM. Hey Simple. I realize you have a problem reading and comprehending English, but even you should be able to understand this ..... SHOW ME where the rules state the above. Mind you now, we are talking about a tugboat engaged in towing astern or pushing ahead or alongside in fog. SHOW ME where the rules say that this vessel is RAM or must be RAM to sound one prolong followed by two short when in fog. I fail to see why you seem to think there is some special circumstance involved here. I fail; to see how you could arrive at the point of believing that I have said there is a special circumstance. This is a simple rule that states which vessels shall blow a specific whistle signal in fog and I fail to see how someone, even with your limited intelligence, reading comprehension and experience can fail to understand it. Shen |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
Subject: Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 13:47 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Shen44" wrote in message ... A motorboat towing sounds the signal of a motor vessel unless the motorboat towing is restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM). Where, AGAIN, does it say that in the rules????? Comeon Neal .... Show us all where it says this!! (no response expected) It says it in Rule 3 under the definition of RAM. Note there is no class of vessels called towboat or towing and that's because there is no such class because a two boat fits into the class of powerboat ROFL That's so lame it's pathetic, though it sounds like something you'd try. If a tugboat/towboat is not different than a powerdriven vessel, why does it carry additional / different lights from a powerdriven vessel (kinda like RAM, NUC which carry additional/different lights and make a different sound signal in fog) Try again Read rule 35 (c) and explain to me why they (tugboats) are included in there if they are RAM .... i.e. there would be no need. Wrong again Neal The only time a vessel towing is allow to sound the one prolonged/ two short blasts fog signal is if the towboat is a RAM. If and only if the towboat is showing lights or shapes of a RAM can it sound the signal of a RAM. (legally speaking that is - you in your ignorance might feel differently and have probably done differently.) Show me where it says this in the rules !!!! (still no response expected EG) Rule 35. The fact still remains that vessels sounding the one prolong blast fog signal or even the two prolonged blast fog signal must not impede any vessel sounding the one prolonged/two short blast fog signal. Where's it say dat? It says it in Rule 8 paragraph (f) (i). Satisfied? |
Simon's superior understanding
ubject: Simon's superior understanding
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 13:53 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: See my posts to that fool Shen44 who had the cheek to argue with me the definition of searoom. Searoom does NOT apply to narrow channels because there is no such thing as searoom in narrow channels by definition. Ok, I admit it. For someone such as yourself, too lacking in basic intelligence and education to be able to apply some of the nuances of the English language, the is no issue of searoom in narrow channels. However, for the rest of us, we can easily apply those nuances and understand how the term could apply. So .... drop that part of the argument.. it applies only to you. Shen |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
"Shen44" wrote in message ... Read rule 35 (c) and explain to me why they (tugboats) are included in there if they are RAM .... i.e. there would be no need. Here is Rule 35 (c) (c) A vessel not under command, a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, a vessel constrained by her draft, a sailing vessel, a vessel engaged in fishing and a vessel engaged in towing or pushing another vessel shall, instead of the signals prescribed in paragraphs (a) or (b) of this Rule, sound at intervals of not more than 2 minutes three blasts in succession, namely one prolonged followed by two short blasts. The key phrase is "engage is pushing or towing ANOTHER VESSEL" If the rule stated just plain pushing or towing I might agree with you but if there is another vessel involved it is assumed that the combination is Restricted in its Ability to Maneuver. That this rule clarifies a point about differences in some tow boats that are RAMs and some that are not has no bearing on our discussion of motorboats who give one signal taking action to avoid a close quarters situation with those vessels that sound the signal delineated in the above Rule. The Rule that names the classes of vessels does not include a class of vessels called towboats. New NUC Reels Ram Catch CBD Fish Fishing So Sailing Purchase Power Some Seaplane This Rule is the Rule that describes pecking order and not Rule 35. 35 is a specific rule that talks about fog signals. It does not change the fact that a towboat does not sound the fog signal of or show the lights and shapes of a RAM unless it is a RAM. The only thing Rule 35 does is says a towboat pushing or towing another vessel may sound the same sound as a RAM, sailboat, NUC. etc. Another argument won. S.Simon |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
Subject: Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
From: "Simple Simon" "Shen44" wrote in Read rule 35 (c) and explain to me why they (tugboats) are included in there if they are RAM .... i.e. there would be no need. Here is Rule 35 (c) (c) A vessel not under command, a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, a vessel constrained by her draft, a sailing vessel, a vessel engaged in fishing and a vessel engaged in towing or pushing another vessel shall, instead of the signals prescribed in paragraphs (a) or (b) of this Rule, sound at intervals of not more than 2 minutes three blasts in succession, namely one prolonged followed by two short blasts. The key phrase is "engage is pushing or towing ANOTHER VESSEL" ROFLMAO Excuse Me? If a towboat/tugboat is NOT engaged in pushing or towing ANOTHER VESSEL, then it's NOT a tugboat/towboat under the rules ..... or did you miss that fact along the way? If the rule stated just plain pushing or towing I might agree with you but if there is another vessel involved it is assumed that the combination is Restricted in its Ability to Maneuver. Now, just Where did you come up with THIS pearl of wisdom? ROFL That this rule clarifies a point about differences in some tow boats that are RAMs and some that are not has no bearing on our discussion of motorboats who give one signal taking action to avoid a close quarters situation with those vessels that sound the signal delineated in the above Rule. huh? more Neal gibberish did you reread any of this garbage? The Rule that names the classes of vessels does not include a class of vessels called towboats. New NUC Reels Ram Catch CBD Fish Fishing So Sailing Purchase Power Some Seaplane This Rule is the Rule that describes pecking order and not Rule 35. 35 is a specific rule that talks about fog signals. ROFL golly .... hey Neal, could a vessel that is NUC be a powerdriven vessel? Could a vessel that is RAM be a powerdriven vessel? Could a vessel which is engaged in towing be a powerdriven vessel? Do they all show different light from the standard run of the mill powerdriven vessel? why? Does a vessel engaged in towing either astern or alongside or ahead sound a different fog signal than a powerdriven vessel? (yes ... why? cause rule 35 says so) It does not change the fact that a towboat does not sound the fog signal of or show the lights and shapes of a RAM unless it is a RAM. ROFL kerrect!! it shows the lights of a towing vessel and sounds the signal described in Rule 35 (c) for a vessel engaged in towing, whether it is RAM or not. The only thing Rule 35 does is says a towboat pushing or towing another vessel may sound the same sound as a RAM, sailboat, NUC. etc. ROFL reading comprehension problem rears it's Neal head. It says that a towboat pushing or towing SHALL sound the same sound as a RAM, sailboat, NUC, etc. Another argument LOST, by S.S. Careful Neal, your beginning to be forced to address the issues and failing badly Shen |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
ROFL Give it up Neal. Your lack of education, intelligence, common
sense, reading comprehension, is coming to the fore. Your post have become ridiculous and your arguments even more so. You're grasping at straws and missing all the strands. otn Simple Simon wrote: "Shen44" wrote in message ... A motorboat towing sounds the signal of a motor vessel unless the motorboat towing is restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM). Where, AGAIN, does it say that in the rules????? Comeon Neal .... Show us all where it says this!! (no response expected) It says it in Rule 3 under the definition of RAM. Note there is no class of vessels called towboat or towing and that's because there is no such class because a two boat fits into the class of powerboat The only time a vessel towing is allow to sound the one prolonged/ two short blasts fog signal is if the towboat is a RAM. If and only if the towboat is showing lights or shapes of a RAM can it sound the signal of a RAM. (legally speaking that is - you in your ignorance might feel differently and have probably done differently.) Show me where it says this in the rules !!!! (still no response expected EG) Rule 35. The fact still remains that vessels sounding the one prolong blast fog signal or even the two prolonged blast fog signal must not impede any vessel sounding the one prolonged/two short blast fog signal. Where's it say dat? It says it in Rule 8 paragraph (f) (i). Satisfied? |
Simon's superior understanding
Couldn't answer a simple direct question with a simple direct answer,
could ya. Simple Simon wrote: See my posts to that fool Shen44 who had the cheek to argue with me the definition of searoom. Searoom does NOT apply to narrow channels because there is no such thing as searoom in narrow channels by definition. "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... So ..... Are you also saying, that since The "impede" statute applies in narrow channels, that "searoom" also applies in narrow channels? |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
Typically ignorant response. You haven't a clue as to the complete
meaning when applied to the rules. You continue to lose. oth Simple Simon wrote: Wrongly applied to be sure. One must use words according to their definition if language is to have any meaning at all. Simply making up usage to comply with your beliefs does not make it so. Sorry Mr. Shen you lose again. S.Simon "Shen44" wrote in message ... The term has been and can be applied to any condition at sea or inshore. |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
Your answers were unbelievably stupid and in no way reflected the
meaning of the rules. It's obvious that among your many failings regarding the rules and reading, that you don't know what a towboat is. As I said, give it up Neal. You're an incompetent who seems to derive pleasure in showing your incompetence. When's the last time you renewed that learners permit you call a license? Your answer to me was not only stupid, it was laughably so..... as are your so-called answers to Shen. The only reason I continue to answer your post, is to be sure that some neophyte who is lurking in the background here, does NOT believe that what you say is gospel, but is, instead, gibberish garbage. otn Simple Simon wrote: Look for my answer to otnmbrd. He already asked me for the Rules that apply and I listed them. I see no need to repeat them to you here. Both of you are equally ignorant so answering one of you should suffice as an answer to both of you. "Shen44" wrote in message ... ubject: Simon rules - Rules discussion From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 13:30 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Like I said, a tugboat is only a motor boat and enjoys no special status unless and until it becomes restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM) at which time it must show the shapes and lights of a RAM as well as any other lights required by the Rules. When the tugboat is a RAM then it must sound the fog signal of a RAM. Hey Simple. I realize you have a problem reading and comprehending English, but even you should be able to understand this ..... SHOW ME where the rules state the above. Mind you now, we are talking about a tugboat engaged in towing astern or pushing ahead or alongside in fog. SHOW ME where the rules say that this vessel is RAM or must be RAM to sound one prolong followed by two short when in fog. I fail to see why you seem to think there is some special circumstance involved here. I fail; to see how you could arrive at the point of believing that I have said there is a special circumstance. This is a simple rule that states which vessels shall blow a specific whistle signal in fog and I fail to see how someone, even with your limited intelligence, reading comprehension and experience can fail to understand it. Shen |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
Struck a nerve, I did. You really panic when you know you're holed and
sinking. wrote in message nk.net... jlrogers wrote: Thrashing around on his hook like that will certainly keep the neophyte fishes away. Besides its BOR-ing. Although I find considerable errors in many of Neal's Post, in this thread, at least he is on topic, whereas most of what I see YOU post, is not only OFF Topic, but ALSO boring. I know you've "killfiled" Shen. Do us all a favor and "killfile" me also. Unlike you, I just note names .... you are on that list of normally useless posters who I infrequently check to see if they've improved ..... to date, you haven't. otn |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
Struck a nerve, I did. You really panic when you know you're holed and
sinking. No, its just that he's only got one mouth, so can only bite at one hook at a time. |
Simon's superior understanding
Once again the novice makes the novice blunder.
The phrase "not to impede" has a very specific meaning, separate from "give-way" and is used differently. Farwell has a lengthy discussion, clearly way over Neal's head, so I won't bother repeating it here. However, it starts with: 'However, the words "avoid impeding" do not have the same unequivocal meaning as do those of "give-way" ' and it goes on to explain that one refers to the responsibility of the sailboat crossing a channel, the other of the powerboat in the channel. For the lurker who might want the truth: the bottom line is that the crossing sailboat should make sure there is plenty of room for the powerboat to go around. In practical terms, this means stay out of its way, especially if the powerboat is much larger. However, if a "risk of collision develops," the powerboat must still act as the giveway vessel and do whatever it can. One can also look to the IMO (The authors of the ColRegs) for guidance. They make it pretty clear that rule 8f was added to clarify the meaning of "shall not impede" in rule 9 and 10. Why is that the professional captains, the standard textbook, and the authors of the rule all agree on its meaning, and yet Neal stands alone in his opinion? "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... Impede means to interfere with the progress of. A vessel that shall not impede is mandated by the Rules to not interfere with the progress of another vessel. This is so simple I'm surprised you had to ask. Something this basic is child's play for an experienced Master mariner such as yours truly. When a Rule states that a vessel shall not impede and allow plenty of searoom then I know the rule means one vessel should not interfere with the progress of another and shall provide plenty of searoom to the vessel it shall not impede. In other words the give-way vessel shall not impede the stand-on vessel in any way at any time and yes, even at sea where searoom exists. S.Simon. "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... As expected, just another typical diatribe which in no way addresses the issues at hand. Admit it SS .... you can't answer the question about the tug. As for time on your boat counting for renewal ..... sorry .....doesn't .... your license is for a powerdriven vessel of a certain tonnage .... you sure you still have that license? Didn't let it lapse didja? Still don't know what "impede" refers to, do ya? Ah well, don't despair, you don't understand the rest of the rules either, so at least you're consistent. otn Simple Simon wrote: I've got more than enough time on the water in my fine vessels both offshore and nearshore to renew easily. I won't have to retake any test questions but even if I did it would be no problem because I know all the answers by virtue of my superior understanding of the COLREGS. What you have yet to learn is a superior understanding of the Rules comes only after years of study and years of practical application in a small sailing vessel. Sitting in a wheelhouse on some big ship sheltered from the wind, the waves, normal ocean sounds and sights simply gives you a case of the 'armchair motorboater's syndrome" which results in impaired sensory input, impaired reaction, impaired application of the Rules and impaired responsibility. Being on the receiving end of motorboater ignorance and arrogance of which you, Shen44, and Jeff Morris display and abundance, is the best way to learn the ins and outs of the Rules provided one can survive your attempts to run us down. I have survived and I shall continue to survive and learn. I welcome all your displays of ignorance because they allow me to become stronger and safer since I know how the levels of ignorance upon which you all proceed impair your judgment and required action. I realize you three don't have a clue what 'shall not impede' means because you have proven you are all clueless. I realize you will persist in impeding vessels you are supposed to give a wide berth in any condition of visibility and this makes you all the more dangerous in restricted visibility. I know your pride does not allow you to believe that motorboats must give way to any and all vessels signaling one prolonged/two short blasts in a fog. I know you will wrongly interpret the Rules so you will end up violating them by creating a close quarters situation in your ignorance. Thank God I know all this or I would have been run down by your like years ago. S.Simon ROFL you couldn't answer ONE question, or address ONE issue, couldya ..... just a bunch of garbage ..... |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
LOL You don't know enough about boats to argue any issue or know whether
I was "holed or sinking" ..... all you know is to argue stupid political issues in a NG, designed for boating. You have a Predominating Stupid Gene, that makes you constantly want to argue stupid politics. Fly away, dummy, and argue your nonsense in an "OT" newsgroup ..... talk about boring......... otn jlrogers wrote: Struck a nerve, I did. You really panic when you know you're holed and sinking. wrote in message nk.net... jlrogers wrote: Thrashing around on his hook like that will certainly keep the neophyte fishes away. Besides its BOR-ing. Although I find considerable errors in many of Neal's Post, in this thread, at least he is on topic, whereas most of what I see YOU post, is not only OFF Topic, but ALSO boring. I know you've "killfiled" Shen. Do us all a favor and "killfile" me also. Unlike you, I just note names .... you are on that list of normally useless posters who I infrequently check to see if they've improved .... to date, you haven't. otn |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
I recall the first time the "sailboats have right-of-way in the fog" issue came up,
several regulars here thought Neal's arguments were plausible. (We won't mention names ....) While some of his comments, taken in isolation, seem reasonable, such as the wind is often light in the fog, you can't use that to prove that sailboats have right of way in thick fog. Neal has taken the extra step of asserting that sailboats are obligated to maintain full speed, in thick fog, even after they hear a fog signal dead ahead. This is the moral equivalent of giving children matches and gasoline to play with. I know that almost every reading this understands that Neal is just a buffoon, but there may be a few people out there that only see one post and are sucked in by it. "Gerard Weatherby" wrote in message ... On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:37:04 GMT, otnmbrd wrote: The only reason I continue to answer your post, is to be sure that some neophyte who is lurking in the background here, does NOT believe that what you say is gospel, but is, instead, gibberish garbage. Surely after the first back and forth this hypothetical neophyte lurker will have sufficient information to draw the necessary conclusions. Why not just post links to the rules? The downloadable version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm and the online version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm S/V Cat's Meow http://www.catsmeow.org |
Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion
Once again Neal shows his lubberly ways by referring to "Webster's" for nautical
definitions. One need only open Bowditch to find the proper definition, as accepted by seamen around the world: "sea room. Space in which to maneuver without danger of grounding or colliding." Clearly, the use of "sea room" is not limited to the high seas; on the contrary, it becomes significant only when there is a risk of grounding or collision. This is exactly the important issue in narrow channels. Neal yet again demonstrates his very limited experience. Anyone that has participated in racing understands the use of "sea room." Its shortened form is defined in the official rules: "Room: The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way." Of course, we really can't expect Neal to understand concepts like "maneuvering in a seamanlike way." "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... One entry found for sea room in Merriam Webster: Main Entry: sea room Function: noun Date: circa 1554 : room for maneuver at sea "Shen44" wrote in message ... Subject: Ellen MacArthur - Rules discussion From: "Simple Simon" Shall not impede applies in a broader sense than in narrow channels. It is stated in Rule 8 --- paracraph (f) (i) and prefaced by the statement 'by any of these rules' which means it is not limited to narrow channel situations. Shall not impede applies to the pecking order. LOL seems to me, YOU are the only one making any mention of "shall not impede", as applying only to "narrow channels". The rest of us know it applies to Traffic separation as well as CBD. Expand your understanding still farther to all circumstances where the term 'searoom' applies and you will finally come up to my superior understanding of the English language. You sure that was "English" you Majored in, and not "Gibberish"? Anyone who reads the rules and comes up with the idea that a tugboat, towing or pushing can only sound one prolong followed by two short, in fog, if they are also RAM, has to either be speaking gibberish and mis translating or not have much of a brain to start with. How DO you come up with these interpretations? You seem to think that 'shall not impede' applies under limited circumstances. On the contrary, Rule 8 proves 'shall not impede' is a broad term that can be used specifically in the instances you mentioned but is actually and in fact a broader term that can be used in any circumstance where the term 'searoom' applies which means at sea because searoom applies at sea. Haven't got much of a historical background, have you. Searoom can be applied at sea and in a narrow channel. The idea ius to know the context of the term and how it is applied .... something beyond your limited reasoning capabilities. Shen |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... I recall the first time the "sailboats have right-of-way in the fog" issue came up, several regulars here thought Neal's arguments were plausible. (We won't mention names ...) Feel free to name me. I had great *fun* in that thread *and* I learned quite a bit. Regards Donal -- |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
That is true of most any thread. I read a lot of our resident "sea
lawyers." But depending on them for legal advice is akin to depending on RB for sail trim advice. "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... I recall the first time the "sailboats have right-of-way in the fog" issue came up, several regulars here thought Neal's arguments were plausible. (We won't mention names ...) While some of his comments, taken in isolation, seem reasonable, such as the wind is often light in the fog, you can't use that to prove that sailboats have right of way in thick fog. Neal has taken the extra step of asserting that sailboats are obligated to maintain full speed, in thick fog, even after they hear a fog signal dead ahead. This is the moral equivalent of giving children matches and gasoline to play with. I know that almost every reading this understands that Neal is just a buffoon, but there may be a few people out there that only see one post and are sucked in by it. "Gerard Weatherby" wrote in message ... On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:37:04 GMT, otnmbrd wrote: The only reason I continue to answer your post, is to be sure that some neophyte who is lurking in the background here, does NOT believe that what you say is gospel, but is, instead, gibberish garbage. Surely after the first back and forth this hypothetical neophyte lurker will have sufficient information to draw the necessary conclusions. Why not just post links to the rules? The downloadable version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm and the online version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm S/V Cat's Meow http://www.catsmeow.org |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
jlrogers wrote:
Thrashing around on his hook like that will certainly keep the neophyte fishes away. Besides its BOR-ing. otnmbrd wrote: Although I find considerable errors in many of Neal's Post, in this thread, at least he is on topic, whereas most of what I see YOU post, is not only OFF Topic, but ALSO boring. Hard to figure out what's going on. JL used to post a lot of good sailing stuff. I wonder if it's not really him, or if there's something in the water. DSK |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
I think we all realize that Neal is "trolling". However, with each new
troll we are apt to find a new possibility of "misinterpretation" that needs to be addressed. Since the subject is at least "On topic" and does tend to bounce around all aspects of the "rules" it does serve a purpose for the group at large. For myself, it keeps me on my toes. I used to read the rules book from cover to cover, once or twice a year, to spark some memory cells ..... BORING!! This gives me a chance to do much the same thing and have some fun at the same time. Frequently, because of my background, I will get people coming to me with rules question (either for test purposes or just for general information), and I've been amazed at times, with some of the interpretations people have, from reading the rules ( much like the stuff in Neal's trolls) so, there's a good chance, BG if there's a rules thread, you'll see me stick to it, because a read through of the rules by a neophyte may end up creating more questions than answers. otn Gerard Weatherby wrote: On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:37:04 GMT, otnmbrd wrote: The only reason I continue to answer your post, is to be sure that some neophyte who is lurking in the background here, does NOT believe that what you say is gospel, but is, instead, gibberish garbage. Surely after the first back and forth this hypothetical neophyte lurker will have sufficient information to draw the necessary conclusions. Why not just post links to the rules? The downloadable version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm and the online version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm S/V Cat's Meow http://www.catsmeow.org |
Simon rules - Rules discussion
I'll second that - reading the rules is, by itself, nearly useless. If anyone doubts me,
they should spend a few hours reading the book, then take a sample test. I would be very surprised if anyone did better than 65% - passing is 90%. In fact, getting better than 80% is difficult even open book. With repetition, its possible to memorize enough of the answers to pass the test. But it requires extended period of study, hopefully assisted by others to truly understand the rules. BTW, it is startling how many people don't understand the rules, or grossly misinterpret them. Fortunately, they usually err on the conservative side, claiming, for instance, that large ships always have right of way. However, I was recently trying to determine the status of rowboats and found many sites, including some official sites and handbooks, that claimed that "human powered vessels" have right of way over all others. It turns out that there is no explicit mention (other than appropriate lights) of rowboats in the ColRegs - which means that they are simply governed by Rule 2 (ordinary practice of seamen ....) and the other basic rules, and enjoy no special status. Also, rule 9 and 10 specify "all vessels under 20 meters ... shall not impede" and for non-US waters the CBD rule applies to all vessels. The major exception to this is that inland lakes, not covered by the ColRegs, often have state regs that give rowboats special status. In MA, for instance, there are 4 such lakes, ME has a lot of them, etc. But these rules do not apply (as far as I know) in the waters covered by ColRegs. -jeff "Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c) "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... I think we all realize that Neal is "trolling". However, with each new troll we are apt to find a new possibility of "misinterpretation" that needs to be addressed. Since the subject is at least "On topic" and does tend to bounce around all aspects of the "rules" it does serve a purpose for the group at large. For myself, it keeps me on my toes. I used to read the rules book from cover to cover, once or twice a year, to spark some memory cells ..... BORING!! This gives me a chance to do much the same thing and have some fun at the same time. Frequently, because of my background, I will get people coming to me with rules question (either for test purposes or just for general information), and I've been amazed at times, with some of the interpretations people have, from reading the rules ( much like the stuff in Neal's trolls) so, there's a good chance, BG if there's a rules thread, you'll see me stick to it, because a read through of the rules by a neophyte may end up creating more questions than answers. otn Gerard Weatherby wrote: On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:37:04 GMT, otnmbrd wrote: The only reason I continue to answer your post, is to be sure that some neophyte who is lurking in the background here, does NOT believe that what you say is gospel, but is, instead, gibberish garbage. Surely after the first back and forth this hypothetical neophyte lurker will have sufficient information to draw the necessary conclusions. Why not just post links to the rules? The downloadable version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm and the online version http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm S/V Cat's Meow http://www.catsmeow.org |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
As usual, that idiot Shen44 is saying I 'disappeared'. Hey, can't
a fellow go sailing without the peanut gallery engaging in wishful thinking? Of course Shen44 wishes his nemesis would just go away but that is not to be his fate, and yours either, Jeff Morris! But, it is you, Jeff , whom I am addressing here. Fact: there is no such classification in the pecking order of a towboat. A towboat has no status in and of itself. A vessel towing is just another motor vessel until and unless it is restricted in its ability to maneuver. Need I remind you of the pecking order which represents ALL classifications of vessels. New NUC Reels RAM Catch CBD Fish Fishing So Sailing Purchase Power Some Sailplane Now, tell me, Mr. Morris, which of the above does a towboat fit into? Huh? I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Oh! You admit that a towboat fits nowhere in the pecking order? Well, good! Because that's a fact. A towboat has no special status in the pecking order. Until and unless a towboat is restricted in its ability to maneuver it remains just another motorboat. Once it becomes restricted in its ability to maneuver it then becomes a RAM. I have to wonder just what about the pecking order do you, Shen44 and otnmbrd not understand? "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... OMIGOD! Neal, What A HORRENDOUS BLUNDER!!! I come back from a day of dodging t'storms and find that you committed your biggest screw-up yet! What happened, did you get your first three stupid responses out before you even glanced at rules? My God, how embarrassing for you!!! Now of course, you can't resist making a complete fool of yourself by claiming that a "vessel engaged in towing" is not a "towboat," and that its really a RAM instead and therefore the rules don't mean what they say, they mean what you would like them to say. Are you actually claiming that because towboats are not listed in the "pecking order" that no rule that mentions them is valid? Is that your point? Are you totally daft? Have you no pride whatsoever?? You claim to have a PhD in English, but you show the logic skills of a fourth grade dropout. (I apologize to any 4th grade dropouts who may be insulted by this.) pathetic ... truly pathetic ... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... "Shen44" wrote in message ... Read rule 35 (c) and explain to me why they (tugboats) are included in there if they are RAM .... i.e. there would be no need. Here is Rule 35 (c) (c) A vessel not under command, a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, a vessel constrained by her draft, a sailing vessel, a vessel engaged in fishing and a vessel engaged in towing or pushing another vessel shall, instead of the signals prescribed in paragraphs (a) or (b) of this Rule, sound at intervals of not more than 2 minutes three blasts in succession, namely one prolonged followed by two short blasts. The key phrase is "engage is pushing or towing ANOTHER VESSEL" If the rule stated just plain pushing or towing I might agree with you but if there is another vessel involved it is assumed that the combination is Restricted in its Ability to Maneuver. That this rule clarifies a point about differences in some tow boats that are RAMs and some that are not has no bearing on our discussion of motorboats who give one signal taking action to avoid a close quarters situation with those vessels that sound the signal delineated in the above Rule. The Rule that names the classes of vessels does not include a class of vessels called towboats. New NUC Reels Ram Catch CBD Fish Fishing So Sailing Purchase Power Some Seaplane This Rule is the Rule that describes pecking order and not Rule 35. 35 is a specific rule that talks about fog signals. It does not change the fact that a towboat does not sound the fog signal of or show the lights and shapes of a RAM unless it is a RAM. The only thing Rule 35 does is says a towboat pushing or towing another vessel may sound the same sound as a RAM, sailboat, NUC. etc. Another argument won. S.Simon |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
I am right and you are wrong. It will take much more than
saying I am 'hilarious to prove your point. I responded by listing the Rules that back up my point. You respond with obfuscation. That makes you ineffective and laughable. "Shen44" wrote in message ... Subject: Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine From: "Simple Simon" Date: 08/04/2003 13:47 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Shen44" wrote in message ... A motorboat towing sounds the signal of a motor vessel unless the motorboat towing is restricted in its ability to maneuver (RAM). Where, AGAIN, does it say that in the rules????? Comeon Neal .... Show us all where it says this!! (no response expected) It says it in Rule 3 under the definition of RAM. Note there is no class of vessels called towboat or towing and that's because there is no such class because a two boat fits into the class of powerboat The only time a vessel towing is allow to sound the one prolonged/ two short blasts fog signal is if the towboat is a RAM. If and only if the towboat is showing lights or shapes of a RAM can it sound the signal of a RAM. (legally speaking that is - you in your ignorance might feel differently and have probably done differently.) Show me where it says this in the rules !!!! (still no response expected EG) Rule 35. HUH? how do you come up with that nonsense? The fact still remains that vessels sounding the one prolong blast fog signal or even the two prolonged blast fog signal must not impede any vessel sounding the one prolonged/two short blast fog signal. Where's it say dat? It says it in Rule 8 paragraph (f) (i). Satisfied? ROFLMAO we must be reading a different set of rules I just gotta get me a copy with your translations. Neal, even when you at least try to come up with an explanation, you are sooooo far off that it's hilarious. |
Simon's superior understanding
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Why is that the professional captains, the standard textbook, and the authors of the rule all agree on its meaning, and yet Neal stands alone in his opinion? Hey, Jeff, I happen to be a professional captain. And, I just happen to be a greater authority on the English language than some smuck named Farwell. Does this Farwell even have a lowly bachelor's degree? I doubt it. 'Shall not impede' means what it says. It is as much a part of the English language as apple pie. Nobody attempts to come up with his own definition of 'apple pie' yet they presume to come up with a definition of 'shall not impede' that is contrary to the dictionary definition. Could it be that those who do so do so out of ignorance? Yes, sir, it is very likely the case. Any time some Rube attempts to force his own lame definitions which do not agree with dictionary definitions upon certain words and terms it is because the Rube is uneducated and ignorant. It casts whatever the Rube says in a dubious light. That's a fact. Another fact is those who would give any credit at all to said Rube are ignorant of the English language just as is the Rube. |
Ellen MacArthur, Tthe Reluctant Heroine
Oh, I see your problem ... you memorized a mnemonic and now think that everything in the
rules depends on the pecking order. Well surprise! There is no pecking order! There happens to be one rule where several relationships are described. These standon/giveway relationships have been dubbed the "pecking order" but only apply in certain situations - In particular, they only apply in conditions of normal visibility. You are correct that towboats are not mentioned, and thus, in normal visibility towboats have no priority unless the declare themselves a RAM, often referred to as an "unruly tow." BTW, you imply here, and state explicitly on you web site, that a NUC is higher on the pecking order than a RAM. There is nothing in the rules that says that. However, the pecking order has no bearing whatsoever in Restricted Visibility. There are different rules and different signals. In this case, the "sound signals in restricted visibility" often called fog signals, are defined in rule 35. You even quoted it (below) and noted that it included "vessel engaged in towing other vessels" in the list of vessel that must use "long-short-short" signals in the fog - hampered vessels according to Farwell. What could be clearer than that? But we then enter the "Neal Zone" where nothing is clear. Because you forgot about this rules and insisted that towboats are not hampered, and you're not man enough to admit that you momentarily forgot rule 35, you're now trying to defend it with meaningless word play. First you claim that "towing other vessels" is different from being a towboat, and is always a RAM. However, "vessel" is defined pretty much as anything that floats - in particular, barges and everything else the towboats normally tow, are vessels. The rule is simply talking about all towboats. Then you switch to claiming that because towboats are not mentioned in the "pecking order" they can't exist as a category, and rules that mention them don't really exist. What about Rule 24 - lights for towing and pushing, the longest rule in the book? Are you saying that towboats shouldn't show any towlights, because they aren't in your pecking order? Perhaps in the Neal Zone, but not in the real world that most of us inhabit. -- -jeff "Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c) "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... As usual, that idiot Shen44 is saying I 'disappeared'. Hey, can't a fellow go sailing without the peanut gallery engaging in wishful thinking? Of course Shen44 wishes his nemesis would just go away but that is not to be his fate, and yours either, Jeff Morris! But, it is you, Jeff , whom I am addressing here. Fact: there is no such classification in the pecking order of a towboat. A towboat has no status in and of itself. A vessel towing is just another motor vessel until and unless it is restricted in its ability to maneuver. Need I remind you of the pecking order which represents ALL classifications of vessels. New NUC Reels RAM Catch CBD Fish Fishing So Sailing Purchase Power Some Sailplane Now, tell me, Mr. Morris, which of the above does a towboat fit into? Huh? I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Oh! You admit that a towboat fits nowhere in the pecking order? Well, good! Because that's a fact. A towboat has no special status in the pecking order. Until and unless a towboat is restricted in its ability to maneuver it remains just another motorboat. Once it becomes restricted in its ability to maneuver it then becomes a RAM. I have to wonder just what about the pecking order do you, Shen44 and otnmbrd not understand? "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... OMIGOD! Neal, What A HORRENDOUS BLUNDER!!! I come back from a day of dodging t'storms and find that you committed your biggest screw-up yet! What happened, did you get your first three stupid responses out before you even glanced at rules? My God, how embarrassing for you!!! Now of course, you can't resist making a complete fool of yourself by claiming that a "vessel engaged in towing" is not a "towboat," and that its really a RAM instead and therefore the rules don't mean what they say, they mean what you would like them to say. Are you actually claiming that because towboats are not listed in the "pecking order" that no rule that mentions them is valid? Is that your point? Are you totally daft? Have you no pride whatsoever?? You claim to have a PhD in English, but you show the logic skills of a fourth grade dropout. (I apologize to any 4th grade dropouts who may be insulted by this.) pathetic ... truly pathetic ... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... "Shen44" wrote in message ... Read rule 35 (c) and explain to me why they (tugboats) are included in there if they are RAM .... i.e. there would be no need. Here is Rule 35 (c) (c) A vessel not under command, a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, a vessel constrained by her draft, a sailing vessel, a vessel engaged in fishing and a vessel engaged in towing or pushing another vessel shall, instead of the signals prescribed in paragraphs (a) or (b) of this Rule, sound at intervals of not more than 2 minutes three blasts in succession, namely one prolonged followed by two short blasts. The key phrase is "engage is pushing or towing ANOTHER VESSEL" If the rule stated just plain pushing or towing I might agree with you but if there is another vessel involved it is assumed that the combination is Restricted in its Ability to Maneuver. That this rule clarifies a point about differences in some tow boats that are RAMs and some that are not has no bearing on our discussion of motorboats who give one signal taking action to avoid a close quarters situation with those vessels that sound the signal delineated in the above Rule. The Rule that names the classes of vessels does not include a class of vessels called towboats. New NUC Reels Ram Catch CBD Fish Fishing So Sailing Purchase Power Some Seaplane This Rule is the Rule that describes pecking order and not Rule 35. 35 is a specific rule that talks about fog signals. It does not change the fact that a towboat does not sound the fog signal of or show the lights and shapes of a RAM unless it is a RAM. The only thing Rule 35 does is says a towboat pushing or towing another vessel may sound the same sound as a RAM, sailboat, NUC. etc. Another argument won. S.Simon |
Simon's superior understanding
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message Why is that the professional captains, the standard textbook, and the authors of the rule all agree on its meaning, and yet Neal stands alone in his opinion? Hey, Jeff, I happen to be a professional captain. Is that true? Hoiw much money have you made using your license? And, I just happen to be a greater authority on the English language than some smuck named Farwell. Does this Farwell even have a lowly bachelor's degree? I doubt it. Farwell died a number of years ago, he was the author of the first edition in 1941. The authors of the 6th edition that I've been quoting are Frank E. Basset, Commander, US Navy, US Naval Academy, '58, served as chairman of the Navigation Department of the Naval Academy; and Richard A. Smith, Commander, Royal Navy, graduate of the Royal Naval College in Dartmouth and the Royal Naval College in Greenwich, also served as chairman of the Navigation Department of the Naval Academy, and at the time of publication, commanding officer of HMS Achilles. I think its fair to say they know what they're talking about. 'Shall not impede' means what it says. It is as much a part of the English language as apple pie. Nobody attempts to come up with his own definition of 'apple pie' yet they presume to come up with a definition of 'shall not impede' that is contrary to the dictionary definition. Could it be that those who do so do so out of ignorance? Absolutely wrong. Anyone creating formal rules must define their terms and use them precisely. Even the IMO, the body that formulated the ColRegs, commented on how "shall no impede" was a very specific term, used in a limited sense, and that in particular, rule 8f was added to clarify the meaning of "shall not impede" in rules 9 and 10. You, on the other hand, have refused to acknowledge common usage, as when you claimed the "sea room" could only apply on the high seas, even though Bowditch defines it in terms of being able to maneuver without risk of collision. The ColRegs use it, of course, in the same context. So what's next? Will you claim you know more than Bowditch? Yes, sir, it is very likely the case. Any time some Rube attempts to force his own lame definitions which do not agree with dictionary definitions upon certain words and terms it is because the Rube is uneducated and ignorant. It casts whatever the Rube says in a dubious light. That's a fact. Another fact is those who would give any credit at all to said Rube are ignorant of the English language just as is the Rube. Have you just assumed a new name, Rube? |
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