Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone with
partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get into
difficulties

This is not a safe attitude.
Jeff has also indicated that it's best to learn chart based nav before falling
back on the "easy" electronics. I think most people will agree that full
comprehension of chart based nav is fundemental. Relying on radar and GPS as
does Mooron is simply not safe.

RB

CANDChelp wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties

This is not a safe attitude.

It is, to my mind, safer than the alternative of going out with only a
partial understanding of traditional nav.


Jeff has also indicated that it's best to learn chart based nav
before falling back on the "easy" electronics. I think most people
will agree that full comprehension of chart based nav is fundemental.
Relying on radar and GPS as does Mooron is simply not safe.

Yet you seem to be happy to let your wife do the traditional nav when she
doesn't have "full comprehension". As for 'easy' electronics, have you
booked yourself into the 'how to operate a battery charger' course, yet?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

This is not a safe attitude.

It is, to my mind, safer than the alternative of going out with only a
partial understanding of traditional nav.

You shouldn't go anywhere until you can read and understand paper charts. I
think you'll find that most sailors will agree.
You can do far better with a 20 dollar chart and handheld compass than you can
with a 500 dollar GPS.

RB

BWAAAHAAA!!!!!

Junior high school geometry is all you need dunce boy!

Unless of course you're doing celestial, then you need to know hyperbolic
function and spherical coordinates which is beyond the grasp of any woman.
Suzzette would think spherical coordinates are matching mumus and beach
balls!!!

BWAHAAAAHAAAA!!!


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...

I've been using several books to aid Suzanne with learning basic nav
skills.
Dispite Mooron's comment that Radar is a "basic" component for the novice,
it's
not covered at all until (Colgate, Seamanship series and so on)
Some of these books are up to 4 years old. I'm guessing that NEW books
will
show that learning radar is a basic nav skill that a person should start
with.

RB

Wally wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids -
provided he has learned to operate a battery charger, of course...

This depends a lot on what you call "partial knowledge." I'd agree that I'm happy that
most small boat operators can now have GPS since they will never learn running fixes, not
would they appreciate the "cocked hat." However, they should at least understand the
basics of the chart notation, the concepts of a bearing line, and (depending on location)
the meaning of variation. Without stuff like this, its hard to use a gps intelligently.
Also, I don't remember ever going through a season without at least one GPS "outage" of
some type - either a bad cable or dead batteries or sailing into a "gap" in the charting.
If this happens to someone without basic skills they are up the creek!

CANDChelp wrote:
This is not a safe attitude.

It is, to my mind, safer than the alternative of going out with only a
partial understanding of traditional nav.

You shouldn't go anywhere until you can read and understand paper
charts. I think you'll find that most sailors will agree.

As do I - I did say that one needs some basic understanding of charts and
coordinates to make sense of GPS and radar.


You can do far better with a 20 dollar chart and handheld compass
than you can with a 500 dollar GPS.

You can do very little without a chart and compass, other than sail by sight
and play guessing games with the rocks. GPS is still a much easier way for a
newbie to triangulate their position.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Jeff Morris wrote:
Wally wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids -
provided he has learned to operate a battery charger, of course...

This depends a lot on what you call "partial knowledge." I'd agree
that I'm happy that most small boat operators can now have GPS since
they will never learn running fixes, not would they appreciate the
"cocked hat." However, they should at least understand the basics
of the chart notation, the concepts of a bearing line, and (depending
on location) the meaning of variation. Without stuff like this, its
hard to use a gps intelligently.

I thoroughly agree.


Also, I don't remember ever going
through a season without at least one GPS "outage" of some type -
either a bad cable or dead batteries or sailing into a "gap" in the
charting. If this happens to someone without basic skills they are up
the creek!

Wouldn't you say that dead batteries is a more fundamental failing than not
being able to use chart and compass? I assume that, by 'gap in the
charting', you're talking about those GPS chart-plotter thingies - but, the
GPS should still be able to give lat/long, which can be found on the paper
chart. (At no point have I said that nav aids should be a substitute for the
traditional tools, to the extent that the latter should be left ashore.)


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Wally wrote:
Jeff Morris wrote:
Also, I don't remember ever going
through a season without at least one GPS "outage" of some type -
either a bad cable or dead batteries or sailing into a "gap" in the
charting. If this happens to someone without basic skills they are up
the creek!

Wouldn't you say that dead batteries is a more fundamental failing
than not being able to use chart and compass?

"Fundamental" or not, it happens, so the boater must be prepared for it. Also, paper
charts blow overboard, so the prudent navigator always has two copies.

I assume that, by 'gap
in the charting', you're talking about those GPS chart-plotter
thingies - but, the GPS should still be able to give lat/long, which
can be found on the paper chart. (At no point have I said that nav
aids should be a substitute for the traditional tools, to the extent
that the latter should be left ashore.)

Several times that I've "fallen into a gap" I've been in tricky channels and was not
pleased. I did have a paper chart on hand and was able to adjust quickly, but I wonder if
a novice would have. Also, I've found that those not used to using paper paper have
trouble plotting from coordinates. Using a GPS in "raw mode" (that is, lat/lon only)
implies being able to use a chart and understand a limited form of Dead Reckoning.

-jeff

"CANDChelp" wrote in message

Relying on radar and GPS as
| does Mooron is simply not safe.

This from someone who thinks a "Running Fix" is a stop at the MacDonald's
drive through!

Bwahahahahahahahahaaa!!

CM

"Wally" wrote in message

| GPS should still be able to give lat/long, which can be found on the paper
| chart. (At no point have I said that nav aids should be a substitute for
the
| traditional tools, to the extent that the latter should be left ashore.)

Ask Bob what his coordinate system is set at.... let alone how to
interpolate that data onto a chart. He has no clue as to chart datum and
wouldn't comprehend UTM from Lat/Lon.... seconds, minutes and degrees are
greek to him..... yet he uses a GPS.

CM