What about when not in sight?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message om...


"katysails" wrote in message ...


So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Good troll!

Cheers MC

Joe wrote:

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

And what about truckers taking people to a party! What if they are all gay?

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:

Joe wrote:


If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.


You started this with the notion of "Cruisers vs Racers". Now you're trying
to turn it into some sort of moral argument. Cruisers, it seems to me,
cruise for pleasure.



I could care less about the COLREGS.


Do you also think that truckers should be allowed to drive on the wrong side
of the road because they're making a living from driving? How about taxi
drivers? Or taxi drivers taking people to a party? What if there are taxi
drivers taking people to a party and truckers in contention for the same bit
of road? Who gets priority then?



It's not about the law, it's about the respect.


What on earth are you talking about? It's not about the law or respect, it's
about *safety*.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Nope, For..it's always about the law. You can expect respect all you =
want, but you're going to be very disappointed when it comes few and far =
between. Rather, rejoice when it is there and ignore the rest. It =
isn't worth getting ulcers over.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

ROFLMAO You're still grasping at straws, I see ..... so you now admit
that the sailboat is NOT a standon vessel, when it can't see the other
vessel, only when it can see it ....progress, of sorts .... don't see
any loophole.

otn

Simple Simon wrote:
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message om...


"katysails" wrote in message ...


So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may
actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has
any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators,
the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions,
one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another.

In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there
will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat
assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules
stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal.

An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to
powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had
similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO
decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when
hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed"
and replaced it with "safe speed."

-jeff



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:
Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...

"katysails" wrote in message
...

So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal
and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not
YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the
process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different
sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the
remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon
hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the
pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment
said vessels come in sight of each other. This means
there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
What about when not in sight?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message om...


"katysails" wrote in message ...


So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

I admitted no such thing.

When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different
sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the
remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon
hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the
pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment
said vessels come in sight of each other. This means
there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility.

S.Simon



"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
ROFLMAO You're still grasping at straws, I see ..... so you now admit
that the sailboat is NOT a standon vessel, when it can't see the other
vessel, only when it can see it ....progress, of sorts .... don't see
any loophole.

otn

Simple Simon wrote:
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message om...


"katysails" wrote in message ...


So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Jeff,

Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed
proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised
you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down
was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor
vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of
even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom
line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow
down. Those already going slow need not slow down
and these include small cruising yacht restricted by
their hull speed.

The fact remains there are two different sound signals
one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above
them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout
out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and
pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels.

You always seem to fall back on your lame argument
about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow
let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does
not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which
ships become visible to one another and hence must
follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near
an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove
there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and
stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

The logic here is unassailable making the statement true
till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat
captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments
have come up short.

S.Simon - irrefuteable



"Jeff Morris" wrote in message m...
Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may
actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has
any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators,
the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions,
one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another.

In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there
will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat
assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules
stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal.

An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to
powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had
similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO
decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when
hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed"
and replaced it with "safe speed."

-jeff



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:
Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...

"katysails" wrote in message
...

So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal
and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not
YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the
process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Subject: Perception
From: "Simple Simon"


In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

Not necessarily ..... what if the sailboat can see the motor vessel, but the
motor vessel can't see the sail vessel? What if the motor vessel is in a TSS or
narrow channel? What if both vessels are so close, that BOTH vessels need to
take action to avoid collision?

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

Stupid statement

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


Sheesh .... the above, is the rambling of some beginner, without a clue.
The term used in the rules is restricted visibility (due to whatever cause) and
refers to situations where the vessels are NOT in sight of each other.
Come on, Neal.... you've been trying to wiggle out of this mess, to no avail,
for so long and in so many ways, you've reduced yourself to a point of
nonsensical rambling.


Shen