| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Perception
The wake surfer brought up and intersting perspective.
Racers vs Cruisers. My perception has always been that a vessel in route always have the right of way. If its a cruiser headed to or from port carrying just crew or 800,000 gallons of fuel they have a purpose and a right. If it just someone playing a sport, it a game, for fun, yeah haaa. So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Joe. MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Joe wrote:
The wake surfer brought up and intersting perspective. Racers vs Cruisers. My perception has always been that a vessel in route always have the right of way. The rules that apply between racers and cruisers are the colregs. If its a cruiser headed to or from port carrying just crew or 800,000 gallons of fuel they have a purpose and a right. If it just someone playing a sport, it a game, for fun, yeah haaa. So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. That's just as much a pile of elitist bull**** as racers are accused of. -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and
or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR = goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process = even though some forget that. --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
Perception
"katysails" wrote in message ...
So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Joe wrote:
If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. You started this with the notion of "Cruisers vs Racers". Now you're trying to turn it into some sort of moral argument. Cruisers, it seems to me, cruise for pleasure. I could care less about the COLREGS. Do you also think that truckers should be allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road because they're making a living from driving? How about taxi drivers? Or taxi drivers taking people to a party? What if there are taxi drivers taking people to a party and truckers in contention for the same bit of road? Who gets priority then? It's not about the law, it's about the respect. What on earth are you talking about? It's not about the law or respect, it's about *safety*. -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
Joe,
I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Who is the stand on vessel in fog?
Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
"Joe" wrote in message om... It's not about the law, it's about the respect. No, Joe ... it's about a system that allows all of us to use the sea without killing each other. I'm beginning to think that the redness of your neck is probably due to the tension in your sphincter! Regards Donal -- |
Perception
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
In all situations?? I think not.
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
What about when not in sight?
Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Good troll!
Cheers MC Joe wrote: I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. |
Perception
And what about truckers taking people to a party! What if they are all gay?
Cheers MC Wally wrote: Joe wrote: If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. You started this with the notion of "Cruisers vs Racers". Now you're trying to turn it into some sort of moral argument. Cruisers, it seems to me, cruise for pleasure. I could care less about the COLREGS. Do you also think that truckers should be allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road because they're making a living from driving? How about taxi drivers? Or taxi drivers taking people to a party? What if there are taxi drivers taking people to a party and truckers in contention for the same bit of road? Who gets priority then? It's not about the law, it's about the respect. What on earth are you talking about? It's not about the law or respect, it's about *safety*. -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
It's not about the law, it's about the respect.
Nope, For..it's always about the law. You can expect respect all you = want, but you're going to be very disappointed when it comes few and far = between. Rather, rejoice when it is there and ignore the rest. It = isn't worth getting ulcers over. --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
Perception
ROFLMAO You're still grasping at straws, I see ..... so you now admit
that the sailboat is NOT a standon vessel, when it can't see the other vessel, only when it can see it ....progress, of sorts .... don't see any loophole. otn Simple Simon wrote: In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may
actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators, the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions, one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another. In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal. An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed" and replaced it with "safe speed." -jeff "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different
sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment said vessels come in sight of each other. This means there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility. S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... What about when not in sight? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
I admitted no such thing.
When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment said vessels come in sight of each other. This means there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... ROFLMAO You're still grasping at straws, I see ..... so you now admit that the sailboat is NOT a standon vessel, when it can't see the other vessel, only when it can see it ....progress, of sorts .... don't see any loophole. otn Simple Simon wrote: In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Jeff,
Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow down. Those already going slow need not slow down and these include small cruising yacht restricted by their hull speed. The fact remains there are two different sound signals one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels. You always seem to fall back on your lame argument about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which ships become visible to one another and hence must follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility. The logic here is unassailable making the statement true till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments have come up short. S.Simon - irrefuteable "Jeff Morris" wrote in message m... Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators, the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions, one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another. In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal. An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed" and replaced it with "safe speed." -jeff "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
Subject: Perception
From: "Simple Simon" In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel Not necessarily ..... what if the sailboat can see the motor vessel, but the motor vessel can't see the sail vessel? What if the motor vessel is in a TSS or narrow channel? What if both vessels are so close, that BOTH vessels need to take action to avoid collision? This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. Stupid statement This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon Sheesh .... the above, is the rambling of some beginner, without a clue. The term used in the rules is restricted visibility (due to whatever cause) and refers to situations where the vessels are NOT in sight of each other. Come on, Neal.... you've been trying to wiggle out of this mess, to no avail, for so long and in so many ways, you've reduced yourself to a point of nonsensical rambling. Shen |
Perception
OOPS ....Forgot one:
What if the sailboat comes out of the fog (and can see the motor vessel) and finds itself overtaking the motor vessel, because the motor vessel has reduced speed to bare steerageway? Shen .... |
Perception
There you go again with your silly specifics to try to
disprove a rule. Because there are exceptions does not make the rule invalid. This is just plain common sense. The only likely situation where the sailboat would NOT be the stand-on vessel is if it found itself behind and overtaking the motorvessel when it got close enough to be in sight of the motor vessel. What likelihood of that ever happening is there when we all know it would be rare indeed for a ship to be going less than five knots. Remember, we are talking about small cruising sailboats here not some radical racing catamaran or something that goes twenty or thirty knots. Of course these would be required to slow to a safe speed while my cruiser is not required to slow to a safe speed because she is already going slow and safe. But, your continued lame arguments don't cut the mustard. You need to refute the facts in order to prevail. Thus far you have been unable to do so. Here are the facts again. Fact one: In or near an area of restricted visibility vessels are required to sound signals specific to the vessel in question. Motor vessels sound one signal when underway and those vessels above them in the pecking order sound another and different signal. This is an ABBREVIATED pecking order. Fact two: When two vessels proceeding in restricted visibility get close enough to each other that they are in-sight (visually) they must then follow the in-sight rules where the FULL pecking order is mandated. Fact three: These two vessels, although operating in or near an area of restricted visibility, become a stand-on and a give-way vessel as long as they remain in sight of one another. Fact four: There is, indeed, a stand-on and a give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility. Chew on that for a while and let's see a rational argument to refute it logically. It cannot be done because the logic is faultless. S.Simon - logic wins out every time. "Shen44" wrote in message ... Subject: Perception From: "Simple Simon" In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel Not necessarily ..... what if the sailboat can see the motor vessel, but the motor vessel can't see the sail vessel? What if the motor vessel is in a TSS or narrow channel? What if both vessels are so close, that BOTH vessels need to take action to avoid collision? This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. Stupid statement This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon Sheesh .... the above, is the rambling of some beginner, without a clue. The term used in the rules is restricted visibility (due to whatever cause) and refers to situations where the vessels are NOT in sight of each other. Come on, Neal.... you've been trying to wiggle out of this mess, to no avail, for so long and in so many ways, you've reduced yourself to a point of nonsensical rambling. Shen |
Perception
You are correct. However, what you say is equally true of sailing vessels. There are
"giveway vessels" in restricted visibility. The ARE NO standon vessels. To the numbers, one more time: A sailboat doing 8 knots travels about 14 feet per second. In 5 seconds, it will go 70 feet. In thick fog, visibility may be down to 50 feet or less. A large vessel might be invisible to the sailboat (and vice versa) until it is within a few seconds travel time. Regardless of how slow the powerboat is going, a collision in inevitable. This is why the Colregs do not give the sailboat standon status in this situation. -- -jeff "Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c) "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment said vessels come in sight of each other. This means there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility. S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... What about when not in sight? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon "The_navigator©" wrote in message ... Who is the stand on vessel in fog? Cheers MC Simple Simon wrote: Joe, I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's terms of the COLREGS. http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual here and better than all the tugboat captains combined which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. "Joe" wrote in message om... "katysails" wrote in message ... So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and or a purpose. Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process even though some forget that. Katy, If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing a game. If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can Scotty can play jacks? You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. I could care less about the COLREGS. It's not about the law, it's about the respect. Joe MSV RedCloud |
Perception
That's where you're wrong as I proved to Capt. Shen44
(and Cabin Boy Otnmbrd). Here's what I presented him with and he has gone away sulking. Fact one: In or near an area of restricted visibility vessels are required to sound signals specific to the vessel in question. Motor vessels sound one signal when underway and those vessels above them in the pecking order sound another and different signal. This is an ABBREVIATED pecking order. Fact two: When two vessels proceeding in restricted visibility get close enough to each other that they are in-sight (visually) they must then follow the in-sight rules where the FULL pecking order is mandated. Fact three: These two vessels, although operating in or near an area of restricted visibility, become a stand-on and a give-way vessel as long as they remain in sight of one another. Fact four: There is, indeed, a stand-on and a give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility. S.Simon - correct again as usual "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... You are correct. However, what you say is equally true of sailing vessels. There are "giveway vessels" in restricted visibility. The ARE NO standon vessels. |
Perception
Obviously you've never seen fog... just a low cloud bank. In real fog you
might not see the bow of your boat. 60 foot visibility is a 'normal' fog bank up my way.... they get way thicker than that. CM "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... | Jeff, | | Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed | proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised | you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down | was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor | vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of | even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom | line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow | down. Those already going slow need not slow down | and these include small cruising yacht restricted by | their hull speed. | | The fact remains there are two different sound signals | one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above | them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout | out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and | pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels. | | You always seem to fall back on your lame argument | about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow | let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does | not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which | ships become visible to one another and hence must | follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near | an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove | there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and | stand-on vessel in restricted visibility. | | The logic here is unassailable making the statement true | till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat | captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments | have come up short. | | S.Simon - irrefuteable | | | | "Jeff Morris" wrote in message m... | Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may | actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has | any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators, | the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions, | one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another. | | In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there | will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat | assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules | stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal. | | An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to | powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had | similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO | decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when | hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed" | and replaced it with "safe speed." | | -jeff | | | | "Simple Simon" wrote in message | ... | In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one | another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the | motor vessel | | This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. | | This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right | over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot | fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility | as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order | exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. | | Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . | | S.Simon | | | "The_navigator©" wrote in message | ... | Who is the stand on vessel in fog? | | Cheers MC | | Simple Simon wrote: | Joe, | | I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could | care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe | and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the | COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should | be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS | will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent | avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. | | I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons | where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's | terms of the COLREGS. | | http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html | | | S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual | here and better than all the tugboat captains combined | which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. | | | "Joe" wrote in message | om... | | "katysails" wrote in message | ... | | So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal | and | or a purpose. | | Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not | YOUR | goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the | process | even though some forget that. | | Katy, | | If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can | play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing | a game. | | If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can | Scotty can play jacks? | | You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole | neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. | | I could care less about the COLREGS. | | It's not about the law, it's about the respect. | | Joe | MSV RedCloud | | | | | | | | | | |
Perception
And obviously YOU'RE too stupid to realize that fog,
thick or thin, is but one of the examples of restricted visibility. Heavy rain can cause restricted visibility, dust and smog can cause restricted visibility, sand storms can restrict visibility and there is restricted visibility in a maritime environment most everywhere in the core of a hurricane. Even smoke from forest fires can cause restricted visibility. You idiots relying on a worst case scenario to prove your point will continue to come up way, way short of the mark. My argument has been and is that stand-on and give-way vessels exist in or near restricted visibility and I have proven it. Your stinking fog so thick you can't see the bow of your wreck of a vessel does not change my argument for unusually thick fog is but one instance of restricted visibility that generally is an exception to the rule. The very purpose of having vessels slow to a safe speed is so when they come within sight of one another they will be going at a safe speed so they can avoid a collision and follow the in-sight Rules. It's sort of like being a safe driver on the road at night and not going so fast that you cannot stop in the distance your headlights shine. PUTZ! S.Simon - the Master of 'em all. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... Obviously you've never seen fog... just a low cloud bank. In real fog you might not see the bow of your boat. 60 foot visibility is a 'normal' fog bank up my way.... they get way thicker than that. CM "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... | Jeff, | | Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed | proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised | you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down | was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor | vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of | even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom | line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow | down. Those already going slow need not slow down | and these include small cruising yacht restricted by | their hull speed. | | The fact remains there are two different sound signals | one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above | them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout | out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and | pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels. | | You always seem to fall back on your lame argument | about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow | let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does | not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which | ships become visible to one another and hence must | follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near | an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove | there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and | stand-on vessel in restricted visibility. | | The logic here is unassailable making the statement true | till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat | captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments | have come up short. | | S.Simon - irrefuteable | | | | "Jeff Morris" wrote in message m... | Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may | actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has | any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators, | the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions, | one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another. | | In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there | will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat | assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules | stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal. | | An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to | powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had | similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO | decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when | hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed" | and replaced it with "safe speed." | | -jeff | | | | "Simple Simon" wrote in message | ... | In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one | another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the | motor vessel | | This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. | | This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right | over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot | fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility | as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order | exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. | | Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . | | S.Simon | | | "The_navigator©" wrote in message | ... | Who is the stand on vessel in fog? | | Cheers MC | | Simple Simon wrote: | Joe, | | I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could | care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe | and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the | COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should | be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS | will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent | avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. | | I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons | where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's | terms of the COLREGS. | | http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html | | | S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual | here and better than all the tugboat captains combined | which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. | | | "Joe" wrote in message | om... | | "katysails" wrote in message | ... | | So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal | and | or a purpose. | | Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not | YOUR | goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the | process | even though some forget that. | | Katy, | | If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can | play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing | a game. | | If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can | Scotty can play jacks? | | You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole | neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. | | I could care less about the COLREGS. | | It's not about the law, it's about the respect. | | Joe | MSV RedCloud | | | | | | | | | | |
Perception
ROFL You insist on going through life with one foot firmly nailed to the
floor. If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. Toot all the whistle signals you want .... there are rules for in sight and rules for not in sight .... they are different and until your simple brain can grasp this simple concept, you have been, are, and forever will be a danger to yourself and all others, in restricted visibility. Simple Simon wrote: I admitted no such thing. When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment said vessels come in sight of each other. This means there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility. ROFL how you come up with some of these conclusions, is amazing...... otn |
Perception
Then what you're claiming is there is never an in-sight
circumstance in restricted visibility? He he, gotcha! If you answer in the infirmative you are patently incorrect as I have proven already. It is clear that in-sight situations occur on a regular basis in restricted visibility. You said yourself that in-sight rules apply when vessels are in sight. Therefore, since in-sight rules require full adherance to the pecking order rules it follows that oftentimes in restricted visibility there is a pecking order. When there is a pecking order there is a stand-on vessel and a give-way vessel. You tugboat captains have insisted there is no such thing as a stand-on vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility. The above paragraph proves you all incorrect. Accept it and live with it! I was right, I am right and I forever shall remain right (unless and until they clarify this discrepancy in the Rules). S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... ROFL You insist on going through life with one foot firmly nailed to the floor. If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. Toot all the whistle signals you want .... there are rules for in sight and rules for not in sight .... they are different and until your simple brain can grasp this simple concept, you have been, are, and forever will be a danger to yourself and all others, in restricted visibility. Simple Simon wrote: I admitted no such thing. When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment said vessels come in sight of each other. This means there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility. ROFL how you come up with some of these conclusions, is amazing...... otn |
Perception
otnmbrd wrote:
If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it? -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
It is the responsibility of BOTH vessels to keep a lookout
by eyes and ears at all times. If in doubt blow the danger/ doubt signal to get their attention or contact them on the VHF and request they get their heads out of their asses. Big ships are notorious for the helmspeople sleeping on the job or with with their faces stuck into girlie magazines. S.Simon "Wally" wrote in message ... otnmbrd wrote: If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it? -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
|
Perception
Comments interspersed:
Simple Simon wrote: There you go again with your silly specifics to try to disprove a rule. Because there are exceptions does not make the rule invalid. This is just plain common sense. The rules are about specifics and non specific situations ....your lack of experience is screaming, once again. The only likely situation where the sailboat would NOT be the stand-on vessel is if it found itself behind and overtaking the motorvessel when it got close enough to be in sight of the motor vessel. All the other situations are just as likely ....see you ignored the one which would involve rule 17b ....nother one you don't understand? What likelihood of that ever happening is there when we all know it would be rare indeed for a ship to be going less than five knots. Remember, we are talking about small cruising sailboats here not some radical racing catamaran or something that goes twenty or thirty knots. Of course these would be required to slow to a safe speed while my cruiser is not required to slow to a safe speed because she is already going slow and safe. incorrect gibberish But, your continued lame arguments don't cut the mustard. none of your arguments "cut the mustard" OR make any sense. You need to refute the facts in order to prevail. Thus far you have been unable to do so. Here are the facts again. Fact one: In or near an area of restricted visibility vessels are required to sound signals specific to the vessel in question. Motor vessels sound one signal when underway and those vessels above them in the pecking order sound another and different signal. This is an ABBREVIATED pecking order. Most motor vessels, not all Tugs engaged in towing sound the same signal as a sailboat, even though they are just bottom of the barrel powerboats (a fact you still fail to understand)....no pecking order, abbreviated or otherwise, since EVERY Vessel must navigate with extreme caution (I know....this is one of those concepts your simple brain can't grasp) Fact two: When two vessels proceeding in restricted visibility get close enough to each other that they are in-sight (visually) they must then follow the in-sight rules where the FULL pecking order is mandated. Oh goody, folks simple gets one right .... if they aren't so close that both vessels must try and maneuver to avoid. Fact three: These two vessels, although operating in or near an area of restricted visibility, become a stand-on and a give-way vessel as long as they remain in sight of one another. Simple statement ..... Note, they are in sight so rules of restricted visibility no longer apply .... You finally getting this part of the concept or are you still going to try to say that since there is fog in the area we must be working under restricted visibility rules for these two vessels? Fact four: There is, indeed, a stand-on and a give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility. For those vessels in sight of one another. Chew on that for a while and let's see a rational argument to refute it logically. It cannot be done because the logic is faultless. You made some statement that are true (2 &3) one that was partially true (4) (you needed to include the "in sight" proviso) and one (1) that was right for the first half, and would have been OK, if you'd only learn when to stop typing. S.Simon - logic wins out every time. "Shen44" wrote in message ... Subject: Perception From: "Simple Simon" In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the motor vessel Not necessarily ..... what if the sailboat can see the motor vessel, but the motor vessel can't see the sail vessel? What if the motor vessel is in a TSS or narrow channel? What if both vessels are so close, that BOTH vessels need to take action to avoid collision? This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. Stupid statement This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . S.Simon Sheesh .... the above, is the rambling of some beginner, without a clue. The term used in the rules is restricted visibility (due to whatever cause) and refers to situations where the vessels are NOT in sight of each other. Come on, Neal.... you've been trying to wiggle out of this mess, to no avail, for so long and in so many ways, you've reduced yourself to a point of nonsensical rambling. Shen I left Shen's post, because it bears repeating |
Perception
ROFLMAO Sheesh, you're "simple"
Simple Simon wrote: Then what you're claiming is there is never an in-sight circumstance in restricted visibility? He he, gotcha! Nope. Are you claiming there's always an insight circumstance in restricted visibility? If you answer in the infirmative you are patently incorrect as I have proven already. If you answer in the "infirmative" you are patently incorrect as I have proven already. It is clear that in-sight situations occur on a regular basis in restricted visibility. You said yourself that in-sight rules apply when vessels are in sight. Therefore, since in-sight rules require full adherance to the pecking order rules it follows that oftentimes in restricted visibility there is a pecking order. When there is a pecking order there is a stand-on vessel and a give-way vessel. Only when both vessels are close enough or have moved into clearer visibility that they can see each other or so close that we're in double "OhChit" mode, but then, we aren't talking about restricted visibility when we get to this point for these to vessels, now are we? You tugboat captains have insisted there is no such thing as a stand-on vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility. The above paragraph proves you all incorrect. Negative we have insisted that there is no stand-on vessel, in or near an area of restricted visibility, if BOTH or either vessel can not see the other ..... a point you fail to grasp. Accept it and live with it! I was right, I am right and I forever shall remain right (unless and until they clarify this discrepancy in the Rules). Accept it and live with it! You were wrong and still are wrong and still and always will be a danger to other boaters and yourself, until you learn the "Rules" otn |
Perception
It doesn't. Assume that they can't until it would be obvious to even a
"Simple Simon" that they couldn't use "restricted visibility" as an excuse for not obeying the rules. If you can't see the bridge, the bridge cannot see you. otn Wally wrote: otnmbrd wrote: If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it? -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
"Shen44" wrote in message ... OOPS ....Forgot one: What if the sailboat comes out of the fog (and can see the motor vessel) and finds itself overtaking the motor vessel, because the motor vessel has reduced speed to bare steerageway? I'd be much more concerned about the risk of collision with a low flying pig! Regards Donal -- |
Perception
Blowing the danger signal could be illegal and of no value if the other
guy can't see you ( and could interfere with normal fog signals) If possible, you should all ready have tried communicating by radio. Paragraphs like this, highlight Neals amateur status. BTW, this issue of one vessel or the other not being able to see, while the other can, is quite often the case, especially when dealing with larger and smaller vessels at the same time. Simple Simon wrote: It is the responsibility of BOTH vessels to keep a lookout by eyes and ears at all times. If in doubt blow the danger/ doubt signal to get their attention or contact them on the VHF and request they get their heads out of their asses. Big ships are notorious for the helmspeople sleeping on the job or with with their faces stuck into girlie magazines. S.Simon "Wally" wrote in message ... otnmbrd wrote: If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it? -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
Perception
Simple Simon wrote: And obviously YOU'RE too stupid to realize that fog, thick or thin, is but one of the examples of restricted visibility. Heavy rain can cause restricted visibility, dust and smog can cause restricted visibility, sand storms can restrict visibility and there is restricted visibility in a maritime environment most everywhere in the core of a hurricane. Even smoke from forest fires can cause restricted visibility. You idiots relying on a worst case scenario to prove your point will continue to come up way, way short of the mark. My argument has been and is that stand-on and give-way vessels exist in or near restricted visibility and I have proven it. You've proven nothing, except to yourself. All you've proved to others, is your complete lack of experience and understanding of the rules. STAND-ON, DOES NOT EXIST IN RESTRICTED VISIBILITY ....and you are just plain too stupid to realize it. Your stinking fog so thick you can't see the bow of your wreck of a vessel does not change my argument for unusually thick fog is but one instance of restricted visibility that generally is an exception to the rule. WRONG for most of us. You are just plain too new to this game to have experienced it ! The very purpose of having vessels slow to a safe speed is so when they come within sight of one another they will be going at a safe speed so they can avoid a collision PERIOD and follow the in-sight Rules. BS! ...normally,k by that time, rule 17b will probably apply. It's sort of like being a safe driver on the road at night and not going so fast that you cannot stop in the distance your headlights shine. PUTZ! S.Simon - the Master of 'em all. I doubt you're master of your own ...... otn "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... Obviously you've never seen fog... just a low cloud bank. In real fog you might not see the bow of your boat. 60 foot visibility is a 'normal' fog bank up my way.... they get way thicker than that. CM "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... | Jeff, | | Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed | proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised | you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down | was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor | vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of | even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom | line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow | down. Those already going slow need not slow down | and these include small cruising yacht restricted by | their hull speed. | | The fact remains there are two different sound signals | one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above | them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout | out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and | pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels. | | You always seem to fall back on your lame argument | about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow | let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does | not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which | ships become visible to one another and hence must | follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near | an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove | there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and | stand-on vessel in restricted visibility. | | The logic here is unassailable making the statement true | till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat | captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments | have come up short. | | S.Simon - irrefuteable | | | | "Jeff Morris" wrote in message . com... | Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may | actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal has | any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the commentators, | the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the conditions, | one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another. | | In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions) there | will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a sailboat | assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the rules | stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal. | | An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to | powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948) had | similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the IMO | decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when | hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate speed" | and replaced it with "safe speed." | | -jeff | | | | "Simple Simon" wrote in message | ... | In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one | another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the | motor vessel | | This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies. | | This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right | over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot | fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility | as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order | exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued. | | Yet the fools continue to argue it . . . | | S.Simon | | | "The_navigator©" wrote in message | ... | Who is the stand on vessel in fog? | | Cheers MC | | Simple Simon wrote: | Joe, | | I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could | care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe | and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the | COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should | be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS | will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent | avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge. | | I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons | where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's | terms of the COLREGS. | | http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html | | | S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual | here and better than all the tugboat captains combined | which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44. | | | "Joe" wrote in message | om... | | "katysails" wrote in message | ... | | So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal | and | or a purpose. | | Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not | YOUR | goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the | process | even though some forget that. | | Katy, | | If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can | play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing | a game. | | If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can | Scotty can play jacks? | | You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole | neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish. | | I could care less about the COLREGS. | | It's not about the law, it's about the respect. | | Joe | MSV RedCloud | | | | | | | | | | |
Perception
That's why you are and probably always will be, an amateur, Donal.
Anyone with any experience and common sense would have learned to expect the unexpected and always keep the possibilities in mind, no matter how slight the chances. otn Donal wrote: "Shen44" wrote in message ... OOPS ....Forgot one: What if the sailboat comes out of the fog (and can see the motor vessel) and finds itself overtaking the motor vessel, because the motor vessel has reduced speed to bare steerageway? I'd be much more concerned about the risk of collision with a low flying pig! Regards Donal -- |
Perception
"otnmbrd" wrote in message . net... That's why you are and probably always will be, an amateur, Donal. Anyone with any experience and common sense would have learned to expect the unexpected and always keep the possibilities in mind, no matter how slight the chances. It is very refreshing to see that you acknowledge that a motor vessel reducing it's speed to bare steerageway would be "unexpected". Regards Donal -- otn Donal wrote: "Shen44" wrote in message ... OOPS ....Forgot one: What if the sailboat comes out of the fog (and can see the motor vessel) and finds itself overtaking the motor vessel, because the motor vessel has reduced speed to bare steerageway? I'd be much more concerned about the risk of collision with a low flying pig! Regards Donal -- |
Perception
Hey stupid. The 'bridge' does not exist in the Rules with
respect to keeping a lookout at all times. Lamers using dangerous excuses and practices like maintaining that you can't see a vessel if the vessel can't see the bridge shows you are unqualified to be a captain. Read the Rules pertaining to keeping a lookout. It says nothing about keeping a lookout on the bridge only. You are required to be aware of other vessels around you even if it requires posting a man or men at the bow, at the stern and any place else not visible from the bridge. You really embarrassed yourself this time. What an ignoramous! S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message t... It doesn't. Assume that they can't until it would be obvious to even a "Simple Simon" that they couldn't use "restricted visibility" as an excuse for not obeying the rules. If you can't see the bridge, the bridge cannot see you. otn Wally wrote: otnmbrd wrote: If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme caution until they are clear of each other. How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it? -- Wally www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:44 AM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com