Horvath wrote:

How stupid are you? SSB is AM. VHF is FM.

Not as stupid as the guy who wrote that SSB is AM and obviously isn't
aware that a large portion of VHF transmissions are AM.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message

Not as stupid as the guy who wrote that SSB is AM and obviously isn't
aware that a large portion of VHF transmissions are AM.

Hey twinkle toes, under 47 CFR chapter 80 section 209,
(the FCC regs for maritime radiotelephones) says the only emissions in the
band 156-162 MHZ (VHF) are F1B, F2B, F2C, F3C, F1D, and F2D, which are all
frequency modulated designations.

Also review 47 CFR 80.213 "Modulation Requirements" paragraphs (a), (2),
(d), (e).

Who is the dummy now?

"Rick" wrote in message Not as stupid as the
guy who wrote that SSB is AM and obviously isn't
aware that a large portion of VHF transmissions are AM.

bwahahahahahaaaaa!!!!!!! Read on Mr Maritime Instructor!

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR80.213]

[Page 54-55]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart E--General Technical Standards

Sec. 80.213 Modulation requirements.

(a) Transmitters must meet the following modulation requirements:
(1) When double sideband emission is used the peak modulation must
be maintained between 75 and 100 percent;
(2) When phase or frequency modulation is used in the 156-162 MHz
band the peak modulation must be maintained between 75 and 100 percent.
A frequency deviation of 5 kHz is defined as 100 percent
peak modulation; and
(3) In single sideband operation the upper sideband must be
transmitted. Single sideband transmitters must automatically limit the
peak envelope power to their authorized operating power and meet the
requirements in Sec. 80.207(c).
(b) Radiotelephone transmitters using A3E, F3E and G3E emission must
have a modulation limiter to prevent any modulation over 100 percent.
This requirement does not apply to survival craft transmitters, to
transmitters that do not require a license or to transmitters whose
output power does not exceed 3 watts.
(c) Coast station transmitters operated in the 72.0-73.0 MHz and
75.4-76.0 MHz bands must be equipped with an audio low-pass filter. The
filter must be installed between the modulation limiter and the
modulated radio frequency stage. At frequencies between 3 kHz and 15 kHz
it must have an attenuation greater than at 1 kHz by at least
40log10 (f/3) dB where ``f'' is the frequency in kilohertz.
At frequencies above 15 kHz the attenuation must be at least 28 dB
greater than at 1 kHz.
(d) Ship and coast station transmitters operating in the 156-162 MHz
band must be capable of proper operation with a frequency deviation of
5 kHz when using any emission authorized by Sec. 80.207 of
this part.
(e) Coast station transmitters operated in the 156-162 MHz band must
be equipped with an audio low-pass filter. The filter must be installed
between the modulation limiter and the modulated radio frequency stage.
At frequencies between 3 kHz and 20 kHz it must have an attenuation
greater than at 1 kHz by at least 60log10(f/3) dB where ``f''
is the audio frequency in kilohertz. At frequencies above 20 kHz the
attenuation must be at least 50 dB greater than at 1 kHz.
(f) Radiodetermination ship stations operating on 154.585 MHz,
159.480 MHz, 160.725 MHz, 160.785 MHz, 454.000 MHz and 459.000 MHz must
employ a duty cycle with a maximum transmission period of 60 seconds
followed by a minimum quiescent period four times the duration of the
transmission period.
(g) Radar stations operating in the bands above 2.4 GHz may use any
type of modulation consistent with the bandwidth requirements in
Sec. 80.209(b).
(h) Radar transponder coast stations using the 2920-3100 MHz or
9320-9500 MHz band must operate in a variable frequency mode and respond
on their operating frequencies with a maximum error equivalent to 100
meters. Additionally, their response must be encoded with a Morse
character starting with a dash. The duration of a Morse dot is defined
as equal to the width of a space and \1/3\ of the width of a Morse dash.
The duration of the response code must not exceed 50 microseconds. The
sensitivity of the stations must be adjustable so that received signals
below -10 dBm at the antenna will not activate the transponder. Antenna
polarization must be horizontal when operating in the 9320-9500 MHz band
and either horizontal or both horizontal and vertical when operating in
the 2920-3100 MHz band. Racons using frequency agile transmitting
techniques must include circuitry designed to reduce interference caused
by triggering from radar antenna sidelobes.
(i) Variable frequency ship station transponders operating in the
2920-3100 MHz or 9320-9500 MHz band that are not used for search and
rescue purposes must meet the following requirements:
(1) Non-selectable transponders must have the following
characteristics:
(i) They must respond on all their frequencies with a maximum range
error equivalent to 100 meters;
(ii) They must use a Morse encoding of ``PS'' (dot-dash-dash-dot,
dot-dot-


[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR80.207]

[Page 50-51]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart E--General Technical Standards

Sec. 80.207 Classes of emission.

(a) Authorization to use radiotelephone and radiotelegraph emissions
by ship and coast stations includes the use of digital selective calling
and selective calling techniques in accordance with Sec. 80.225.
(b) In radiotelegraphy communications employing a modulated carrier
the carrier must be keyed and modulated by an audio frequency.
(c) Authorization to use single sideband emission is limited to
emitting a carrier;
(1) For full carrier transmitters at a power level between 3 and 6
dB below peak envelope power;
(2) For suppressed carrier transmitters at a power level at least 40
dB below peak envelope power; and
(3) For reduced or variable level carrier:
(i) In the 1600-4000 kHz band:
(A) For coast station transmitters 182 dB below peak
envelope power;
(B) For ship station transmitters installed before January 2, 1982,
162 dB below peak envelope power; and

[[Page 51]]

(C) For ship station transmitters installed after January 1, 1982,
182 dB below peak envelope power.
(ii) In the 4000-27500 kHz band:
(A) For coast station transmitters 182 dB below peak
envelope power;
(B) For ship station transmitters installed before January 2, 1978,
162 dB below peak envelope power; and
(C) For ship station transmitters installed after January 1, 1978,
182 dB below peak envelope power.
(d) The authorized classes of emission are as follows:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Types of stations Classes of emission
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ship Stations \1\

Radiotelegraphy:
100-160 kHz.................... A1A
405-525 kHz.................... A1A, J2A
1605-27500 kHz:
Manual..................... A1A, J2A
DSC........................ F1B, J2B
NB-DP \14\................. F1B, J2B
Facsimile.................. F1C, F3C, J2C, J3C
156-162 MHz \2\................ F1B,F2B,F2C,F3C,F1D,F2D
DSC........................ G2B
216-220 MHz \3\................ F1B, F2B, F2C, F3C, F1D, F2D
1626.5-1646.5 MHz.............. (\4\)
Radiotelephony:
1605-27500 kHz \5\............. H3E, J3E, R3E
27.5-470 MHz \6\............... G3D, G3E
1626.5-1646.5 MHz.............. (\4\)
Radiodetermination:
285-325 kHz \7\................ A1A, A2A
405-525 kHz (Direction Finding) A3N, H3N, J3N, NON
\8\.
154-459 MHz: \12\................ A1D, A2D, F1D, F2D, G1D, G2D
2.4-9.5 GHz.................... PON
14.00-14.05 GHz................ F3N

Land Stations \1\

Radiotelegraphy:
100-160 kHz.................... A1A
405-525 kHz.................... A1A, J2A
1605-2850 kHz: ...................................
Manual..................... A1A, J2A
Facsimile.................. F1C, F3C, J2C, J3C
Alaska--Fixed.............. A1A, J2A
4000-27500 kHz: ...................................
Manual..................... A1A, J2A
DSC........................ F1B, J2B
NB-DP \14\................. F1B, J2B
Facsimile.................. F1C, F3C, J2C, J3C
Alaska--Fixed.............. A1A, A2A, F1B, F2B
72-76 MHz...................... A1A, A2A, F1B, F2B
156-162 MHz\2\................. F1B,F2B,F2C,F3C,F1D,F2D
DSC.......................... G2B
216-220 MHz \3\................ F1B, F2B, F2C, F3C, F1D, F2D
Radiotelephony:
1605-27500 kHz................. H3E, J3E, R3E
72-76 MHz...................... A3E, F3E, G3E
156-470 MHz.................... G3E
Radiodetermination:
2.4-9.6 GHz.................... PON
Distress, Urgency and Safety: \8\
\9\
500 kHz \10\................... A2A and A2B or H2A and H2B
2182 kHz \10\ \11\............. A2B, A3B, H2B, H3E, J2B, and J3E
8364 kHz....................... A2A, H2A
121.500 MHz.................... A3E, A3X, N0N
123.100 MHz.................... A3E
156.750 and 156.800 MHz \13\... G3E, G3N
243.000 MHz.................... A3E, A3X, N0N
406.025 MHz.................... G1D
------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Excludes distress, EPIRBs, survival craft, and automatic link
establishment.
\2\ Frequencies used for public correspondence and in Alaska 156.425
MHz. See Secs. 80.371(c), 80.373(f) and 80.385(b). Transmitters
approved before January 1, 1994, for G3E emissions will be authorized
indefinitely for F2C, F3C, F1D and F2D emissions. Transmitters
approved on or after January 1, 1994, will be authorized for F2C, F3C,
F1D or F2D emissions only if they are approved specifically for each
emission designator.
\3\ Frequencies used in the Automated Maritime Telecommunications System
(AMTS). See Sec. 80.385(b).
\4\ Types of emission are determined by the INMARSAT Organization.
\5\ Transmitters approved prior to December 31, 1969, for emission H3E,
J3E, and R3E and an authorized bandwidth of 3.5 kHz may continue to be
operated. These transmitters will not be authorized in new
installations.
\6\ G3D emission must be used only by one-board stations for maneuvering
or navigation.
\7\ Frequencies used for cable repair operations. See Sec. 80.375(b).
\8\ For direction finding requirements see Sec. 80.375.
\9\ Includes distress emissions used by ship, coast, EPIRB's and
survival craft stations.
\10\ On 500 kHz and 2182 kHz A1B, A2B, H2B and J2B emissions indicate
transmission of the auto alarm signals.
\11\ Ships on domestic voyages must use J3E emission only.
\12\ For frequencies 154.585 MHz, 159.480 MHz, 160.725 MHz, 160.785 MHz,
454.000 MHz and 459.000 MHz, authorized for offshore radiolocation and
related telecommand operations.
\13\ Class C EPIRB stations may not be used after February 1, 1999.
\14\ NB-DP operations which are not in accordance with CCIR
Recommendation 625 or 476 are permitted to utilize any modulation, so
long as emissions are within the limits set forth in Sec. 80.211(f).


[51 FR 31213, Sept. 2, 1986; 51 FR 34984, Oct. 1, 1986; as amended at 52
FR 7418, Mar. 11, 1987; 52 FR 35244, Sept. 18, 1987; 53 FR 8905, Mar.
18, 1988; 53 FR 37308, Sept. 26, 1988; 54 FR 40058, Sept. 29, 1989; 54
FR 49993, Dec. 4, 1989; 56 FR 11516, Mar. 19, 1991; 57 FR 43407, Sept.
21, 1992; 58 FR 33344, June 17, 1993; 62 FR 40305, July 28, 1997; 63 FR
36606, July 7, 1998; 67 FR 48564, July 25, 2002]

Milos Forman wrote:

Who is the dummy now?

You and Horvath both I guess.

Who said anything about the marine band? Horvath wrote:

"How stupid are you? SSB is AM. VHF is FM.
Want me explain the difference between cable and satellite dish?"

None of the modes he mentioned are exclusively marine band. Cable
certainly isn't a marine communications product or mode and satellite
dishes can be found anywhere. Horvath didn't say diddly about marine
band communications.

If you spent even 30 seconds googling around for your cut and paste you
take the dummy prize. At least Horvath had the sense to keep his mouth shut.

Rick

A Nil by any other name is still a pathetic wannabe loser squatting on a
broken plastic toy boat.

Rick

One important point should be recognized.

FM radios draw full transmit current the moment
the micorphone is keyed up.

SSB radios only draw standby power until the
operator speaks--ie no extra power is drawn
until the voice signal is modulated. This
saves battery power.

So not only is more power put into the signal
with SSB, but your batteries are saved when
you are not speaking.

One disadvantage is that it can be difficult
to tell when the other party you are speaking
with has stopped talking.

It is easy to tell when the other party stops
transmitting on FM because the carrier will
drop. If your squelch is set correctly you
will hear nothing and if the squelch circuit
is open, you will hear static or background
signals which will be oticably different
from a full carrier signal.

So proper operating procedure with SSB is to
put the word "Over" or "Back to you" at the end
of each transmission. Some radios have what is
called a "Roger Beep" that is transmitted when
the microphone is unkeyed.

Bart Senior


"Bobsprit" wrote

VHF radio is FM which is the modulation of a sine wave carrier so that the
instantaneous frequency differs from the carrier frequency by an amount
proportionate to the instantaneous amplitude of the modulating wave.

Single sidebandband suppressed carrier modulation is a form of amplitude
modulation whereas the carrier frequency and one sideband of the modulated
carrier is suppressed.

For S/N the NBFM (VHF) performance is the same as DSB-AM in the presence of
white noise. The SSB performance is superior to both and to SSB-AM because
all the signal power is is placed into a narrower spectral band than the
former.

SSB detection requires the use of synchronous demodulation, preferably with
phase synchronization, otherwise a Donald Duck type voice appears.

Since you never venture far offshore, dixie cups with strings will provide
more than adequate performance.

RB

"Bobsprit" wrote

I'm not clear on marine SSB radios. Can someone explain how they differ
from
standard VHF? A friend is now offering me a pretty expensive Icom SSB. I
doubt
I have a need for it, but it's basically free. I may just tell him to sell
it
on ebay. I was thinking of adding a AM/SSB (CB) radio to the boat which
would
be better than the GMRS.
So can someone explain what the marine SSB is? Is it VHF with upper and
lowers?

Thanks in advance...

RB

However, when you use your SSB to transmit email with a Pactor TNC using
Pactor III mode, you will be running at almost 100% duty cycle and
drawing close to full transmit current while the email is going out.
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

N1EE wrote:

One important point should be recognized.

FM radios draw full transmit current the moment
the micorphone is keyed up.

SSB radios only draw standby power until the
operator speaks--ie no extra power is drawn
until the voice signal is modulated. This
saves battery power.

So not only is more power put into the signal
with SSB, but your batteries are saved when
you are not speaking.

One disadvantage is that it can be difficult
to tell when the other party you are speaking
with has stopped talking.

It is easy to tell when the other party stops
transmitting on FM because the carrier will
drop. If your squelch is set correctly you
will hear nothing and if the squelch circuit
is open, you will hear static or background
signals which will be oticably different
from a full carrier signal.

So proper operating procedure with SSB is to
put the word "Over" or "Back to you" at the end
of each transmission. Some radios have what is
called a "Roger Beep" that is transmitted when
the microphone is unkeyed.

Bart Senior


"Bobsprit" wrote


VHF radio is FM which is the modulation of a sine wave carrier so that the
instantaneous frequency differs from the carrier frequency by an amount
proportionate to the instantaneous amplitude of the modulating wave.

Single sidebandband suppressed carrier modulation is a form of amplitude
modulation whereas the carrier frequency and one sideband of the modulated
carrier is suppressed.

For S/N the NBFM (VHF) performance is the same as DSB-AM in the presence of
white noise. The SSB performance is superior to both and to SSB-AM because
all the signal power is is placed into a narrower spectral band than the
former.

SSB detection requires the use of synchronous demodulation, preferably with
phase synchronization, otherwise a Donald Duck type voice appears.

Since you never venture far offshore, dixie cups with strings will provide
more than adequate performance.

RB

"Bobsprit" wrote

I'm not clear on marine SSB radios. Can someone explain how they differ

from

standard VHF? A friend is now offering me a pretty expensive Icom SSB. I

doubt

I have a need for it, but it's basically free. I may just tell him to sell

it

on ebay. I was thinking of adding a AM/SSB (CB) radio to the boat which

would

be better than the GMRS.
So can someone explain what the marine SSB is? Is it VHF with upper and

lowers?

Thanks in advance...

RB

"Not as stupid as the guy who wrote that SSB is AM and obviously isn't
aware that a large portion of VHF transmissions are AM."

The only AM VHF transmissions in use today are on the comm and nav bands of
aircraft radios. There are some SSB VHF signals used for earth - satellite
communications. Virtually 95% of all VHF communications are exclusively FM.
So where is this large portion?






"Rick" wrote in message
nk.net...
Milos Forman wrote:

Who is the dummy now?

You and Horvath both I guess.

Who said anything about the marine band? Horvath wrote:

"How stupid are you? SSB is AM. VHF is FM.
Want me explain the difference between cable and satellite dish?"

None of the modes he mentioned are exclusively marine band. Cable
certainly isn't a marine communications product or mode and satellite
dishes can be found anywhere. Horvath didn't say diddly about marine
band communications.

If you spent even 30 seconds googling around for your cut and paste you
take the dummy prize. At least Horvath had the sense to keep his mouth
shut.

Rick

Your assertion is obviously proven wrong.

You didn't even know the psi on a Navy D-type boiler either.




"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
A Nil by any other name is still a pathetic wannabe loser squatting on a
broken plastic toy boat.

Rick

Is it 14 when cold?

Cheers MC

Milos Forman wrote:

Your assertion is obviously proven wrong.

You didn't even know the psi on a Navy D-type boiler either.




"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

A Nil by any other name is still a pathetic wannabe loser squatting on a
broken plastic toy boat.

Rick