I don't know if it would have been prudent to lift anchor in that situation.
You might be putting your boat/people in danger. I guess it's a judgement
call.

"Brien Alkire" wrote in message
...
It drifted away too quickly for that, we would have had to lift our anchor
and pursue it. If someone was onboard and in distress then we would have
lifted anchor and tried to help. But it was not worth the risk to our
crew
to pursue an unoccupied vessel drifting out to sea (no lee shore).


"Nav" wrote in message
...
Good story. Did you think about putting a line onto the cruisers anchor
warp and letting out more scope again?

Cheers

Brien Alkire wrote:

A few weeks ago I submitted a posting asking for info on anchoring at
Paradise Cove in Malibu. We went last weekend, so here's some info on
our
experience.

We left Marina Del Rey at 10:30 in a Catalina 36. Paradise Cove is
due
west
and the wind was nose on. It was a beautiful day, sunny and clear
day.
Temperature was around 70F, and winds initially were around 12 knots.

The wind and waves built throughout the afternoon with plenty of
whitecaps.
We had many periods of solid 18 knot winds, and short periods of winds
in
the low 20s and waves around 5 ft. It was difficult making progress
upwind,
but we were having a great time.

We arrived at Paradise Cove and set the anchor by 16:00. We anchored
in
sand outside the kelp beds about 300 feet off the pier in 38 feet of
water.
The wind died down suddenly, partly due to shelter of the cove and
partly
due to their own accord.

I snorkeled for a short while, with visibility around 15 feet (not bad
for
the coastline around here, but nothing like the islands). I also swam
down
and checked the anchor, which was fine. We enjoyed a bottle of wine
on
deck
as the sunset, and watched numerous pods of dolphins swim by. A few
of
them
even jumped, and it was a happy time with a goreous sunset.

There were two other sailboats in the cove, further out and apparently
unoccupied (one was moored). There was a 25 foot cabin cruiser
anchored
about 100 feet from the pier. We saw a few kayakers around before
sunset
too.

After sunset there was a dramatic change. A nasty Santa Ana kicked up
out
of the east. I would say the winds were in the high 20s with gusts
around
40. It blew out any westerly swell, so the water was calm. The winds
are
warm.

We enjoyed a nice BBQ dinner. After dinner, the wind was very severe
and I
checked the anchor. It seemed to be holding fine (single plow anchor
off
the bow). I let out more scope as a precaution, and went below.

At 20:10 (shortly after letting out more scope) we heard a loud BANG!
I
looked up through the campionway and saw a structure. My first
impression
was that our bimini had been blown off. I scrambled up the steps,
then
realized the structure was not our bimini, it was the cabin cruiser.
First
I didn't know if we'd dragged anchor or what had happened. Then I
realized
we were still anchored fine, and my impression was that the cabin
cruiser
had swung into us. There was no one onboard the cabin cruiser (we'd
seen
some folks in a dinghy earlier). And it was clear that the cabin
cruiser
was dragging anchor.

I debated whether I wanted to try and board her and reset the anchor
on
the
cabin cruiser. However, we're not very experienced, don't have a
dinghy,
and the winds were howling. Instead I wrote down the CF numbers and
hailed
the USCG.

The cabin cruiser was flying out to sea fast! Luckily, there's no lee
shore
in this condition at Paradise Cove. The USCG intercepted the vessel
at
around 22:00. We could see from the anchor light that the vessel was
about
to go hull down, and we estimated it must have been nearly 10 nmi away
by
then (it was flying fast).

We were fine, only our BBQ was destroyed. Our anchor was holding, but
the
event made us all anxious. I sent the crew to sleep and I stayed on
deck
and watched the anchor until 1AM. It was a beautiful night, warm,
very
clear, the moon almost full. I went below for some sleep, and got up
every
two hours to check the anchor throughout the night.

The next morning was beautiful and all was well. We had a
non-eventful
trip
home.

The owner of the cabin cruiser paid for the damage and all is well and
everyone happy.

A little more adventure than I would have wished for, but it's a
beautiful
place and I'll be sure to go again.

-B.

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where your
crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid -it doesnt
sound as if that was the case but it was your call. I'm not sure if that
principle applies in coastal U.S... Second what about salvage laws? It
doesn't sound like it would have been a big deal to go after it.
Wouldn't at least a part of the vessel become yours under salvage laws?
I commend you for getting help for it -others might have just cursed and
hoped it went on the rocks for hitting your boat...

Cheers



Brien Alkire wrote:
It drifted away too quickly for that, we would have had to lift our anchor
and pursue it. If someone was onboard and in distress then we would have
lifted anchor and tried to help. But it was not worth the risk to our crew
to pursue an unoccupied vessel drifting out to sea (no lee shore).


"Nav" wrote in message
...

Good story. Did you think about putting a line onto the cruisers anchor
warp and letting out more scope again?

Cheers

Brien Alkire wrote:


A few weeks ago I submitted a posting asking for info on anchoring at
Paradise Cove in Malibu. We went last weekend, so here's some info on

our

experience.

We left Marina Del Rey at 10:30 in a Catalina 36. Paradise Cove is due

west

and the wind was nose on. It was a beautiful day, sunny and clear day.
Temperature was around 70F, and winds initially were around 12 knots.

The wind and waves built throughout the afternoon with plenty of

whitecaps.

We had many periods of solid 18 knot winds, and short periods of winds

in

the low 20s and waves around 5 ft. It was difficult making progress

upwind,

but we were having a great time.

We arrived at Paradise Cove and set the anchor by 16:00. We anchored in
sand outside the kelp beds about 300 feet off the pier in 38 feet of

water.

The wind died down suddenly, partly due to shelter of the cove and

partly

due to their own accord.

I snorkeled for a short while, with visibility around 15 feet (not bad

for

the coastline around here, but nothing like the islands). I also swam

down

and checked the anchor, which was fine. We enjoyed a bottle of wine on

deck

as the sunset, and watched numerous pods of dolphins swim by. A few of

them

even jumped, and it was a happy time with a goreous sunset.

There were two other sailboats in the cove, further out and apparently
unoccupied (one was moored). There was a 25 foot cabin cruiser anchored
about 100 feet from the pier. We saw a few kayakers around before

sunset

too.

After sunset there was a dramatic change. A nasty Santa Ana kicked up

out

of the east. I would say the winds were in the high 20s with gusts

around

40. It blew out any westerly swell, so the water was calm. The winds

are

warm.

We enjoyed a nice BBQ dinner. After dinner, the wind was very severe

and I

checked the anchor. It seemed to be holding fine (single plow anchor

off

the bow). I let out more scope as a precaution, and went below.

At 20:10 (shortly after letting out more scope) we heard a loud BANG! I
looked up through the campionway and saw a structure. My first

impression

was that our bimini had been blown off. I scrambled up the steps, then
realized the structure was not our bimini, it was the cabin cruiser.

First

I didn't know if we'd dragged anchor or what had happened. Then I

realized

we were still anchored fine, and my impression was that the cabin

cruiser

had swung into us. There was no one onboard the cabin cruiser (we'd

seen

some folks in a dinghy earlier). And it was clear that the cabin

cruiser

was dragging anchor.

I debated whether I wanted to try and board her and reset the anchor on

the

cabin cruiser. However, we're not very experienced, don't have a

dinghy,

and the winds were howling. Instead I wrote down the CF numbers and

hailed

the USCG.

The cabin cruiser was flying out to sea fast! Luckily, there's no lee

shore

in this condition at Paradise Cove. The USCG intercepted the vessel at
around 22:00. We could see from the anchor light that the vessel was

about

to go hull down, and we estimated it must have been nearly 10 nmi away

by

then (it was flying fast).

We were fine, only our BBQ was destroyed. Our anchor was holding, but

the

event made us all anxious. I sent the crew to sleep and I stayed on

deck

and watched the anchor until 1AM. It was a beautiful night, warm, very
clear, the moon almost full. I went below for some sleep, and got up

every

two hours to check the anchor throughout the night.

The next morning was beautiful and all was well. We had a non-eventful

trip

home.

The owner of the cabin cruiser paid for the damage and all is well and
everyone happy.

A little more adventure than I would have wished for, but it's a

beautiful

place and I'll be sure to go again.

-B.

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where your
crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid

Yes, and I determined it would place us in danger (night time with
inexperienced crew in dangerous winds).

I commend you for getting help for it

Thanks.

Did you by any chance think about calling a securite on it? It might be
an idea if it is a harbour that was providing refuge from poor
conditions. It is possible that some vessel would be trying to come in
and not know there was a drifting hazard out there?

It seems to me your story is finally a proper sailing post we can get
out teeth into. There are lots of interesting side issue to discuss if
you want to.

Cheers


Brien Alkire wrote:

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where your
crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid


Yes, and I determined it would place us in danger (night time with
inexperienced crew in dangerous winds).


I commend you for getting help for it


Thanks.

Nav, excellent suggestion. Securite is definitely the right thing to do
at a minimum. Good catch.

That makes it a bit safer for the other people out there...

"Nav" wrote in message
...
Did you by any chance think about calling a securite on it? It might be
an idea if it is a harbour that was providing refuge from poor
conditions. It is possible that some vessel would be trying to come in
and not know there was a drifting hazard out there?

It seems to me your story is finally a proper sailing post we can get
out teeth into. There are lots of interesting side issue to discuss if
you want to.

Cheers


Brien Alkire wrote:

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where your
crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid


Yes, and I determined it would place us in danger (night time with
inexperienced crew in dangerous winds).


I commend you for getting help for it


Thanks.

Nav wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where your
crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid -it doesnt
sound as if that was the case but it was your call. I'm not sure if that
principle applies in coastal U.S... Second what about salvage laws? It
doesn't sound like it would have been a big deal to go after it.
Wouldn't at least a part of the vessel become yours under salvage laws?
I commend you for getting help for it -others might have just cursed and
hoped it went on the rocks for hitting your boat...

Cheers

46 U.S.C. sect 2304
(a) A Master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render assistance
to any "INDIVIDUAL" (my emphasis) found at sea in danger of being lost,
so far as the Master or individual in charge can do so without serious
danger to the Master's or individual's vessel or individuals on board.

He had no responsibility to the boat, other than the responsibility he
took to inform the USCG. Upon receipt of the call, the CG should have
initiated a "securite" or "pan", depending on their perception of events
...... course, it would also have been fine if the caller sent a securite.
Naturally, if there is any doubt as to someone being aboard, and in the
spirit of how we should act, it is always well looked upon when someone
tries to save a boat, people or no people aboard.
G FWIW, I'd say he did fine.

otn

Very interesting. I had always thought that under UK and NZ law the
vessel and her cargo received similar rights of protection from other
mariners as passengers -of course the length you might go to would be
different. I Thought it was considered to be a vessel in distress and
not the passengers per se. I take your point though that the USC looks
different. Anyone else care to add anything?

Cheers

otnmbrd wrote:



Nav wrote:

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where
your crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid -it
doesnt sound as if that was the case but it was your call. I'm not
sure if that principle applies in coastal U.S... Second what about
salvage laws? It doesn't sound like it would have been a big deal to
go after it. Wouldn't at least a part of the vessel become yours under
salvage laws?
I commend you for getting help for it -others might have just cursed
and hoped it went on the rocks for hitting your boat...

Cheers


46 U.S.C. sect 2304
(a) A Master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render assistance
to any "INDIVIDUAL" (my emphasis) found at sea in danger of being lost,
so far as the Master or individual in charge can do so without serious
danger to the Master's or individual's vessel or individuals on board.

He had no responsibility to the boat, other than the responsibility he
took to inform the USCG. Upon receipt of the call, the CG should have
initiated a "securite" or "pan", depending on their perception of events
..... course, it would also have been fine if the caller sent a securite.
Naturally, if there is any doubt as to someone being aboard, and in the
spirit of how we should act, it is always well looked upon when someone
tries to save a boat, people or no people aboard.
G FWIW, I'd say he did fine.

otn

Another case that would require comment from a "Maritime/Admiralty
Lawyer".
I think we all can show cases, where the various rescue organizations
have rescued the "individuals" and then let the vessel and cargo go it's
merry way, which could be perceived as not showing a concern for the
vessel/cargo (I, for one, have been involved in a few rescues, where our
only concern was the "individuals". Once they were secure we paid no
further heed to the vessel).
The possible sticking point here, may involve certainty that the
particular vessel does not contain "human" life, which may require saving.

otn

Nav wrote:
Very interesting. I had always thought that under UK and NZ law the
vessel and her cargo received similar rights of protection from other
mariners as passengers -of course the length you might go to would be
different. I Thought it was considered to be a vessel in distress and
not the passengers per se. I take your point though that the USC looks
different. Anyone else care to add anything?

Cheers

otnmbrd wrote:



Nav wrote:

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where
your crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid -it
doesnt sound as if that was the case but it was your call. I'm not
sure if that principle applies in coastal U.S... Second what about
salvage laws? It doesn't sound like it would have been a big deal to
go after it. Wouldn't at least a part of the vessel become yours
under salvage laws?
I commend you for getting help for it -others might have just cursed
and hoped it went on the rocks for hitting your boat...

Cheers



46 U.S.C. sect 2304
(a) A Master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render
assistance to any "INDIVIDUAL" (my emphasis) found at sea in danger of
being lost, so far as the Master or individual in charge can do so
without serious danger to the Master's or individual's vessel or
individuals on board.

He had no responsibility to the boat, other than the responsibility he
took to inform the USCG. Upon receipt of the call, the CG should have
initiated a "securite" or "pan", depending on their perception of
events ..... course, it would also have been fine if the caller sent a
securite.
Naturally, if there is any doubt as to someone being aboard, and in
the spirit of how we should act, it is always well looked upon when
someone tries to save a boat, people or no people aboard.
G FWIW, I'd say he did fine.

otn

You can put your teeth back in the glass now. I believe Brien said he saw
them leave the PB on their dingy, but whose to say they didn't return unseen
, or that someone or two stayed aboard and were sleeping, passed out drunk,
or ill, whatever. How could one be sure there's no one onboard?

Scotty

"Nav" wrote

It seems to me your story is finally a proper sailing post we can get
out teeth into. There are lots of interesting side issue to discuss if
you want to.

Cheers


Brien Alkire wrote:

Just a couple of thoughts. Here it is a part of the responsability of
all masters to go to the aid of stricken _vessels_ -i.e. whether they
have people on board is irrelevant. The only excuse not to is where your
crew or vessel would be placed in danger by providing aid


Yes, and I determined it would place us in danger (night time with
inexperienced crew in dangerous winds).


I commend you for getting help for it


Thanks.

You can claim salvage rights on a boat that's dragging anchor?

SV


"Nav" wrote ...
Wouldn't at least a part of the vessel become yours under salvage laws?