http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/index.s...7769157140.xml

Seems most of the crew of the sunken boat are locals. RIP.

And something is fishy about the pilot saying he hasent seen many
small boats in Southwest pass, thats BS. And I wonder why they decided
on 2 whistles to pass.

Bet it's going to prove to be a Stbd side T-bone, and they will blame
the smaller vessel.

And I agree that annoying lights from the terminal could be a very
confusing factor in fog. That confusion could of been avoided by
focusing on radar alone.

Joe

Joe wrote:
http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/index.s...7769157140.xml

Seems most of the crew of the sunken boat are locals. RIP.

We read the report differently.

And something is fishy about the pilot saying he hasent seen many
small boats in Southwest pass, thats BS. And I wonder why they decided
on 2 whistles to pass.

Not the pilot, a pilot. He seems to be saying that he doesn't know the
particular boat, which coupled with the fact that the majority of the
crew are from Texas, may mean that they were not regulars. As for the
stbd to stbd passage, that's understandable if the ZIM was running deep
and wanting the deepest part of the channel

Bet it's going to prove to be a Stbd side T-bone, and they will blame
the smaller vessel.

If it does, then the Zim will have some s'plainin to do, considering the
stbd to stbd agreement.

And I agree that annoying lights from the terminal could be a very
confusing factor in fog. That confusion could of been avoided by
focusing on radar alone.

Might be confusing to someone new to the area, but sole concentration to
the radar is not necessarily going to solve that problem, so, I'd
disagree with your second sentence.
At any rate, condolences to all.

otn

otnmbrd wrote:
At any rate, condolences to all.

It's a tragic accident, and points up the seriousness of some of the
issues we've discussed here. It is sad to hear of this kind of loss.

Doug King

otnmbrd wrote in message link.net...
Joe wrote:
http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/index.s...7769157140.xml

Seems most of the crew of the sunken boat are locals. RIP.

We read the report differently.
Ok but most of the crew is from Galveston about 30 miles from here.


And something is fishy about the pilot saying he hasent seen many
small boats in Southwest pass, thats BS. And I wonder why they decided
on 2 whistles to pass.

Not the pilot, a pilot. He seems to be saying that he doesn't know the
particular boat, which coupled with the fact that the majority of the
crew are from Texas, may mean that they were not regulars.

It may, but most oilfield service boats run back and forth to the same
dock/ rigs. Im from Texas and spent 50% of the time working LA.


As for the
stbd to stbd passage, that's understandable if the ZIM was running deep
and wanting the deepest part of the channel

Usually the middle of the channel the deepest. But if they agreeded
on 2 whistle then so be it.

Bet it's going to prove to be a Stbd side T-bone, and they will blame
the smaller vessel.

If it does, then the Zim will have some s'plainin to do, considering the
stbd to stbd agreement.

Not if the smaller boat realized he wasent over far enough and made a
sharp port turn in front of him.


And I agree that annoying lights from the terminal could be a very
confusing factor in fog. That confusion could of been avoided by
focusing on radar alone.

Might be confusing to someone new to the area, but sole concentration to
the radar is not necessarily going to solve that problem, so, I'd
disagree with your second sentence.

If the fog is so thick you can not see anything but glare then the
smartest thing to do is keep your head buried in the radar. Or get out
of the channel and drop the hook.


At any rate, condolences to all.

Yeah, its gotta suck to be run down. The mississippi is cold and fast
and muddy this time of year and a bobulous(sp?) bow lifting you and
dumping you over has to be very violent. The Lee III looks like a slow
steel nondisplacement boat, one of the things I liked about the
aluminum crew boats is some times you can run fast enough to save your
ass.

Joe


otn

DSK wrote in message . ..
otnmbrd wrote:
At any rate, condolences to all.

It's a tragic accident, and points up the seriousness of some of the
issues we've discussed here. It is sad to hear of this kind of loss.

It sure is.

Joe

Doug King

Joe wrote:
otnmbrd wrote in message link.net...

Joe wrote:

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/index.s...7769157140.xml

Seems most of the crew of the sunken boat are locals. RIP.

We read the report differently.

Ok but most of the crew is from Galveston about 30 miles from here.

Ahhh, You meant local to you .... I was thinking not local to the
Mississippi


And something is fishy about the pilot saying he hasent seen many
small boats in Southwest pass, thats BS. And I wonder why they decided
on 2 whistles to pass.

Not the pilot, a pilot. He seems to be saying that he doesn't know the
particular boat, which coupled with the fact that the majority of the
crew are from Texas, may mean that they were not regulars.


It may, but most oilfield service boats run back and forth to the same
dock/ rigs. Im from Texas and spent 50% of the time working LA.

True, and most pilots know the "regulars", so it may mean this one was
not, which could have led to confusion on his part,if he was not used to
the river.


As for the

stbd to stbd passage, that's understandable if the ZIM was running deep
and wanting the deepest part of the channel


Usually the middle of the channel the deepest. But if they agreeded
on 2 whistle then so be it.

Not always true on the river. I'm going to assume by middle of the
channel you may be meaning the physical middle between the banks. In
many areas, the deepest part will be on the outside bank of a bend or
turn, and in some areas (straight runs become a function of the bends)
it will favor one side or the other.

Bet it's going to prove to be a Stbd side T-bone, and they will blame
the smaller vessel.

If it does, then the Zim will have some s'plainin to do, considering the
stbd to stbd agreement.


Not if the smaller boat realized he wasent over far enough and made a
sharp port turn in front of him.

This is true, G I'm leaning towards portside damage.


And I agree that annoying lights from the terminal could be a very
confusing factor in fog. That confusion could of been avoided by
focusing on radar alone.

Might be confusing to someone new to the area, but sole concentration to
the radar is not necessarily going to solve that problem, so, I'd
disagree with your second sentence.


If the fog is so thick you can not see anything but glare then the
smartest thing to do is keep your head buried in the radar. Or get out
of the channel and drop the hook.

BG We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.



At any rate, condolences to all.


Yeah, its gotta suck to be run down. The mississippi is cold and fast
and muddy this time of year and a bobulous(sp?) bow lifting you and
dumping you over has to be very violent. The Lee III looks like a slow
steel nondisplacement boat, one of the things I liked about the
aluminum crew boats is some times you can run fast enough to save your
ass.

"bulbous" Considering the size, I'd guess she was an older boat,
probably not much faster than 12k.

otn

otnmbrd wrote in message link.net...
Joe wrote:
otnmbrd wrote in message link.net...

Joe wrote:

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/index.s...7769157140.xml

Seems most of the crew of the sunken boat are locals. RIP.

We read the report differently.

Ok but most of the crew is from Galveston about 30 miles from here.

Ahhh, You meant local to you .... I was thinking not local to the
Mississippi


And something is fishy about the pilot saying he hasent seen many
small boats in Southwest pass, thats BS. And I wonder why they decided
on 2 whistles to pass.

Not the pilot, a pilot. He seems to be saying that he doesn't know the
particular boat, which coupled with the fact that the majority of the
crew are from Texas, may mean that they were not regulars.


It may, but most oilfield service boats run back and forth to the same
dock/ rigs. Im from Texas and spent 50% of the time working LA.

True, and most pilots know the "regulars", so it may mean this one was
not, which could have led to confusion on his part,if he was not used to
the river.


As for the

stbd to stbd passage, that's understandable if the ZIM was running deep
and wanting the deepest part of the channel


Usually the middle of the channel the deepest. But if they agreeded
on 2 whistle then so be it.

Not always true on the river. I'm going to assume by middle of the
channel you may be meaning the physical middle between the banks.

No, around head of passes you have channel markers for the shipping
traffic.
In fact a great portion of the lower miss has defined shipping
channels.

In
many areas, the deepest part will be on the outside bank of a bend or
turn, and in some areas (straight runs become a function of the bends)
it will favor one side or the other.

Agreeded, but with the Port of New Orelans being one of the busiest in
the world a well defined dredge in places and marked channel is in
place.


Bet it's going to prove to be a Stbd side T-bone, and they will blame
the smaller vessel.

If it does, then the Zim will have some s'plainin to do, considering the
stbd to stbd agreement.


Not if the smaller boat realized he wasent over far enough and made a
sharp port turn in front of him.

This is true, G I'm leaning towards portside damage.



Why?


And I agree that annoying lights from the terminal could be a
very
confusing factor in fog. That confusion could of been avoided by
focusing on radar alone.

Might be confusing to someone new to the area, but sole concentration to
the radar is not necessarily going to solve that problem, so, I'd
disagree with your second sentence.


If the fog is so thick you can not see anything but glare then the
smartest thing to do is keep your head buried in the radar. Or get out
of the channel and drop the hook.

BG We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.


IT's the classic fog strike, Everyone says I saw the running lights
than BAM!
To do a visual lookout going any faster than 2 knots is a waste of
time if you have a good radar. Now its advised to look up every once
and a while incase it thins but to stare in a fog cloud full of
blinding yellow bug lights is a PITA and useless and confusing.



At any rate, condolences to all.


Yeah, its gotta suck to be run down. The mississippi is cold and fast
and muddy this time of year and a bobulous(sp?) bow lifting you and
dumping you over has to be very violent. The Lee III looks like a slow
steel nondisplacement boat, one of the things I liked about the
aluminum crew boats is some times you can run fast enough to save your
ass.

"bulbous" Considering the size, I'd guess she was an older boat,
probably not much faster than 12k.


Sounds bout right, Ive never see the boat, Ive seen the Lee in
Galveston and I guess shes in the same fleet.

otn

Joe

Joe wrote:
otnmbrd wrote in message news:

Not always true on the river. I'm going to assume by middle of the
channel you may be meaning the physical middle between the banks.


No, around head of passes you have channel markers for the shipping
traffic.
In fact a great portion of the lower miss has defined shipping
channels.

In

many areas, the deepest part will be on the outside bank of a bend or
turn, and in some areas (straight runs become a function of the bends)
it will favor one side or the other.


Agreeded, but with the Port of New Orelans being one of the busiest in
the world a well defined dredge in places and marked channel is in
place.

Not disagreeing with any of this. However, at times, for deep draft
ships, the preferred side of the channel, may be the left side, rather
than the middle or right side.
This being the case would explain the request for stbd to stbd passage,
which in fog, for someone not regularly familiar with the channel, could
have led to last minute confusion with what they perceived to be
happening on radar and a turn, which actually, caused the
collision......pure conjecture on my part.


Bet it's going to prove to be a Stbd side T-bone, and they will blame
the smaller vessel.

If it does, then the Zim will have some s'plainin to do, considering the
stbd to stbd agreement.


Not if the smaller boat realized he wasent over far enough and made a
sharp port turn in front of him.

This is true, G I'm leaning towards portside damage.



Why?

To continue above ... I'm guessing the "supply boat", for whatever
reason,... confusion, misread, etc. may have tried to correct what he
thought of was an error by coming right to get to the more "normal" port
to port..... again, pure conjecture which can easily become wrong when
they get more information.


And I agree that annoying lights from the terminal could be a
very

confusing factor in fog. That confusion could of been avoided by
focusing on radar alone.

Might be confusing to someone new to the area, but sole concentration to
the radar is not necessarily going to solve that problem, so, I'd
disagree with your second sentence.


If the fog is so thick you can not see anything but glare then the
smartest thing to do is keep your head buried in the radar. Or get out
of the channel and drop the hook.

BG We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.


IT's the classic fog strike, Everyone says I saw the running lights
than BAM!
To do a visual lookout going any faster than 2 knots is a waste of
time if you have a good radar. Now its advised to look up every once
and a while incase it thins but to stare in a fog cloud full of
blinding yellow bug lights is a PITA and useless and confusing.

G We're getting closer. The differences are mainly in operating
parameters.

otn

(Joe) wrote in message . com...
otnmbrd wrote in message



Not always true on the river. I'm going to assume by middle of the
channel you may be meaning the physical middle between the banks.

Interesting info about the mississippi and the ship wreck area from
James Varney of the times picayune:


The route from New Orleans to the open sea is one that has bedeviled
the maritime industry for more than 125 years.

The aquatic artery moves in a powerful swift line for roughly 100
miles from the Crescent City Connection to Head of Passes, where the
Mississippi glides over a sand bank and becomes a three-pronged fork.
The main pass -- the one in which the Lee III was scuttled in a thick,
5:30 a.m. fog -- is known as Southwest Pass. It offers a relatively
straight, 14-mile shot to the Gulf of Mexico. Another, less traveled
route is called South Pass, and the third, which isn't navigable to
the Gulf, is named Pass a l'Outre.

Given the options -- which also include the manmade Mississippi
River-Gulf Outlet, or "Mr. Go" -- it would seem traffic headed upriver
could continue to flow even if the Southwest Pass were blocked. For a
variety of reasons, some artificial and some attributable to the
river's own mighty will, that is not the case.

Nor has it been the case since James Buchanan Eads began agitating in
1874 for federal money to dredge one of the delta's fingers and make
it available for commerce. His first choice was the Southwest Pass,
which he correctly saw as the only one wide enough to handle
increasing traffic. For several reasons, however, Eads was stymied. He
was given the South Pass while his arch foe, Andrew Alexander
Humphreys, began work on the Southwest Pass.

Although Eads eventually beat Humphreys, and got the South Pass to a
depth of 28 feet, his foresight proved correct.

"In fact, the (depth of the) water flowing over the bank there into
the South Pass is the exact same today -- around 9 feet -- that it was
in 1875," said John M. Barry, the Louisiana historian and author of
"Rising Tide," a chronicle of the Mississippi's epic 1927 flood.

Today, the Corps' steady dredging keeps the channel draft in the South
Pass at 17 feet, a depth that might have accommodated the Lee III but
is nowhere near deep enough for a colossus like the ZIM Mexico III.
The Southwest Pass, by contrast, has a channel ranging between 45 and
65 feet deep, Mujica said.

Even that can fluctuate. When it's foggy, and the Corps can't get its
survey boats on the water, river sediment can build up so fast the
bottom will rise 3 feet in 24 hours.

"Keeping a deep-water pass in the Mississippi River is no children's
game," Corps spokesman John Hall said. "There's a premium on
horsepower out there, and as the deep water swings from side to side
in the bends, it's like switching back and forth from American highway
traffic to a British highway system."

Thus, the Corps updates its charts on a 24-hour basis and transmits
them to Pilottown, where they are posted on a war room wall. The most
up-to-date depths, in other words, are available.

But in the case of the crash between the Lee III and the ZIM Mexico
III, the depth was less important than width. Given that the channel's
surface width is only 750 feet, that after the collision the Lee III's
stern was poking above the surface, and that the area was quickly
swarming with Coast Guard and salvage boats, there simply was no room
for a ship, regardless of draft, to get through.



I thought it was the bow sticking out of the water.

Joe

Joe wrote:

snip

Even that can fluctuate. When it's foggy, and the Corps can't get its
survey boats on the water, river sediment can build up so fast the
bottom will rise 3 feet in 24 hours.

"Keeping a deep-water pass in the Mississippi River is no children's
game," Corps spokesman John Hall said. "There's a premium on
horsepower out there, and as the deep water swings from side to side
in the bends, it's like switching back and forth from American highway
traffic to a British highway system."

Thus, the Corps updates its charts on a 24-hour basis and transmits
them to Pilottown, where they are posted on a war room wall. The most
up-to-date depths, in other words, are available.

This is the point I was going for, regarding the reason for the Stbd to
stbd passage.
I've been aground twice on that river, G so it's not one of my favorites.


I thought it was the bow sticking out of the water.

I wouldn't rely on that report, for that, but could indicate area of
major damage.

otn

Joe