I am considering a 1982 Cal 30 for bay and coastal cruising near the
Houston - Galveston area. The plan would be to leave the boat with one
of the local charter sail organizations that would provide docking and
light maintenance of the boat. They indicated that they would
anticipate good rentals for such a boat, assuming that it is surveyed
and shown to be in good condition, but they would not accept it unless
the existing tiller steering mechanism can be converted to wheel
steering. - They tell me that there are shops in the area who can do
such work for around $1,000 to $1,500.

Does anyone have any experience or information concerning such a
conversion? Someone suggested that Cal, or another marine equipment
source, may be able to provide a kit of necessary components for
installing the wheel. I would also be interested in any comments from
those with experience re the Cal 30. I have sailed a somewhat larger Cal
(33?) and was impressed with it as a stable though perhaps not very
speedy boat, suitable for "near-shore" blue water sailing.

Thanks,
Jim Cate

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Jim Cate wrote:

[ In considering a 1982 Cal 30 for bay and coastal
cruising near Houston - Galveston which I might
also want to offer for rental I'm advised I ought
consider converting from the existing tiller to
wheel steering, which I've been told can be done
for around $1,000 to $1,500, and I wonder about
equipment sources and experience with this boat
in general in terms of whether it is/isn't ] stable
though perhaps not very speedy boat, suitable for
"near-shore" blue water sailing.

Query whether you've actually verified that the guesstimated
conversion price to which you refer is realistic/reliable (though,
relatedly, you don't make clear whether you have in mind
canibalization [of reliable equipment?] compared with buying new)

Further, since you don't say anything whatever about

- the equipment/condition of the particular boat
you've looked at (other than that it is designed
with and has a tiller), or

- about where in the +/- $13-to-$21K price range
these sorts of boats appear to be offered for
sale you probably would pay for that boat, or

- what (if any) esthetic/utility enhancement to
_you_ (as compared with your contemplated part
time rental agent and renters) you believe probably
would result from the conversion apart from
dollar cost (not even whether you would/wouldn't
care how the conversion probably will affect that
boat's comparatively limited cockpit space, etc.), or

- probably how long you will keep/use the boat, or

- whether you even care (one way or t'other)
whether if (when?) you sell or trade the wheel
instead of tiller will/won't enhance the liklihood
of a later sale by you or whether you probably
will/won't recoup any of the the dollar cost of
conversion,

you make it difficult for anyone to offer any (for _you_) probably
reliable suggestions.

As for new equipment sources, probably the most well known (but not
the only one) is Edson (which, if asked, will give you an equipment
list and price for your model sailboat), re. which see:
http://www.edsonmarine.com/sailboat/sailboat_toc.html

Re. the boat itself, you might want to look thought the Sailnet List
archives for comments by owners/users and see whether Practical Sailor
has reviewed the particular model you have in mind.

Arguably the most signficant element of your posting/query is less
what (if any) brand of steering wheel to install (or not), or any
element of sailing, as such, but rather that it suggests the
desirability of your reading and thinking carefully about the issues
raised (and, perhaps, the books reviewed in) the March 1, 2004 issue
of "The New Yorker" magazine re. choice-making:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/art/?040301crbo_books

wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Jim Cate wrote:

I'm considering a 1982 Cal 30 for bay and coastal
cruising near Houston - Galveston which I might
also want to offer for rental I'm advised I ought
consider converting from the existing tiller to
wheel steering, which I've been told can be done
for around $1,000 to $1,500, and I wonder about
equipment sources and experience with this boat
in general in terms of whether it is/isn't ] stable
though perhaps not very speedy boat, suitable for
"near-shore" blue water sailing.



Query whether you've actually verified that the guesstimated
conversion price to which you refer is realistic/reliable

Nope. I thought I might get some helpful information from sailers on
the ng who had looked into this already, so that I would have some
knowledte of what's involved and what price ranges to expect. - That's
why I posted the note in the first place.

(though,
relatedly, you don't make clear whether you have in mind
canibalization [of reliable equipment?] compared with buying new)


Again, my note requested suggestions and advice as to the best way to
approach the matter, and whether kits were available for the project. I
don't know the best way to approach the matter, or whether it is one
that is commonly done within the price ranges mentioned, and that's why
I posted the inquiry in the first place.

Further, since you don't say anything whatever about

- the equipment/condition of the particular boat
you've looked at (other than that it is designed
with and has a tiller), or


I haven't seent the boat, but from the ad, it is in good condition, has
roller furling, lines led aft, several communication systems, several
extra sails, and lots of other equipment that other boats in this price
range don't seem to have. So, it at least seems worth looking into,
provided that the wheel conversion could be done at a reasonable price.
- Incidentally, my note didn't actually ask for a detailed analysis
of whether the boat was a good buy, or whether on balance I should
look for a boat with the equipment I needed rather than investing in the
present boat with the wheel conversion . . Instead, my note asked
whether anyone had information or experience about the wheel conversion
process, and whether there were commercially available kits to do the
work. - If you would concentrate on just responding to the questions
asked, you would probably minimize your apparent frustration.

- about where in the ± $13-to-$21K price range
these sorts of boats appear to be offered for
sale you probably would pay for that boat, or

The boat is available at around $17,000. It has new through-hull
fittings, new bottom treatments, roller furling and a 11 hp diesel that
reportedly is in good running condition (which I would have surveyed
before continuing any negotiations.)

- what (if any) esthetic/utility enhancement to
_you_ (as compared with your contemplated part
time rental agent and renters) you believe probably
would result from the conversion apart from dollar cost (not
even whether you would/wouldn't
care how the conversion probably will affect that
boat's comparatively limited cockpit space, etc.), or

I have a strong preference for wheel steering. I can't explain exactly
why, but I don't like the idea of me and my guests having to jump out of
the way of a long tiller extenting into the cockpit


y how long you will keep/use the boat, or

Who knows how long they will keep/use any boat. However, leaving the
boat with the leasing company would solve a number of problems for me,
since I don't want to have to inspect, maintain, and work on the boat on
a regular basis. It would also minimize slip, maintenance, and other
expenses and may provide a tax benefit.. Also, if I decided to sell the
boat (or, for example, if I died and my wife had to sell the boat), it
would be far, far, easier to sell with a wheel steering system than with
a tiller. Although I'm aware of pros and cons of the two systems, there
are MANY MORE POTENTIAL BUYERS of a 30-foot sailboat having wheel steering.


- whether you even care (one way or t'other)
whether if (when?) you sell or trade the wheel
instead of tiller will/won't enhance the liklihood
of a later sale by you or whether you probably
will/won't recoup any of the the dollar cost of conversion,

Your opinion that having wheel steering rather than a tiller won't
enhance the likelihood of a later sale if flat-out wrong. You are, of
course, entitled to your opinion. But in our area, in which there are
lots of relatively new sailboats in the water and at the boat shows, and
in which there are lots of boats for sale, a tiller would be a big
problem in marketing the boat. .


you make it difficult for anyone to offer any (for _you_) probably
reliable suggestions.


Well, if it's too difficult, don't waste any more of your time answering
it.. - However, if you read the note and actually answered the
questions asked, you would find that they really aren't that difficult.

As for new equipment sources, probably the most well known (but not
the only one) is Edson (which, if asked, will give you an equipment
list and price for your model sailboat), re. which see:
http://www.edsonmarine.com/sailboat/sailboat_toc.html

Re. the boat itself, you might want to look thought the Sailnet List
archives for comments by owners/users and see whether Practical Sailor
has reviewed the particular model you have in mind.

Arguably the most signficant element of your posting/query is less
what (if any) brand of steering wheel to install (or not), or any
element of sailing, as such, but rather that it suggests the
desirability of your reading and thinking carefully about the issues
raised (and, perhaps, the books reviewed in) the March 1, 2004 issue
of "The New Yorker" magazine re. choice-making:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/art/?040301crbo_books


Read all the books? Great ide!!! - I'll do exactly that, when I get
time to do it. - - But why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before I go further? For
example, what's involved in making such a conversion; does anyone have
experience in such a project, and what were their experience; and, are
there any kits that would simplify the job. In other words, if such a
project is not practicable, or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing the characteristics of
the boat (particularly since I have already sailed on similar Cals
several times.)

Jim

Re. a proposed purchase for +/- $17,000 of a 1982 Cal. 30, on Thu, 26
Feb 2004, Jim Cate further wrote in pertinent part::

I thought I might get some helpful information
from sailers on the ng who had looked into this
already, so that I would have some knowledte
of what's involved and what price ranges to expect.
- That's why I posted the note in the first place.

And that's why I suggest that it would be desirable for you to verify
whether the +/- $1,500 cost to which you referred was realistic and
gave you the link to the Edson catalog (from which you readily would
have determined that a new purchase just of the equipment if from that
supplier would probably cost in that range quite apart from the labor
and related fiberglassing costs of installation and which would have
also led you to other materials to the effect that other
manufacturers' products are similarly priced).

I have a strong preference for wheel steering.

So do I.

Yet I also recognize that many others prefer a tiller and (obviously)
that the boat to which you refer is designed for and presently
equipped with tiller steering.

* * * if I decided to sell the boat (or . . . died and
my wife had to sell the boat), it would be far, far, easier
to sell with a wheel steering system than with a tiller.

Maybe, you can predict the likely market in the Galveston Bay area if
(you don't say: when) you later decide to sell or you die; but, maybe,
you can't. But even if correct, this rejoinder begs the question
whether one reason such a sale will be "easier" (especially if "far,
far" so) is that the price at which such a boat realistically will be
sell-able will not reflect any (much less: anything approaching full)
reimbursement to you of the conversion costs (and, as earlier noted,
maybe you don't care).

why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before
I go further? For example, what's involved in making
such a conversion; . . .

You already know: what is "involved" is buying or finding a donator of
used pedestal, wheel, cables, and related equipment (as, among others,
Edson will tell you and as you readily could have determined by
looking at the Edson catalog or by telephoning that company); then in
doing the installation/(re)glassing, etc. Further, if (as I presume
is so though you haven't actually said) you're referring to the Cal
9.2 [meter] model, the rudder design almost certainly isn't
susceptible to use of external cabling compared with the need to
install an internal under-deck wheel or rack/pinion; and so the labor
involved ought not be underestimated. Which is also why I suggested
that you verify the price you say had been indicated (but not actually
explicitly/bindingly quoted) to you.

. . . does anyone have experience in such a project,
and what were their experience; and, are there any
kits that would simplify the job.

As I told you, Edson will give you a suggested packgage/kit price, and
others probably will do the same.

In other words, if such a project is not practicable,
or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing
the characteristics of the boat (particularly since I
have already sailed on similar Cals several times.)

Apart from the actual net dollar cost for parts/labor, it would be
difficult to believe that (perhaps especially in such a popular
sailing area as Galveston) one could not more or less readily find a
comparable boat which will satisfy your "strong preference for wheel
steering" yet at a comparable price (but with the wheel rather than
tiller already installed/workable).

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Query whether you've actually verified that the guesstimated
conversion price to which you refer is realistic/reliable

Nope. I thought I might get some helpful information from sailers on
the ng who had looked into this already, so that I would have some
knowledte of what's involved and what price ranges to expect. - That's
why I posted the note in the first place.

It sounds like you don't recognise helpful suggestions when you get them.




Again, my note requested suggestions and advice as to the best way to
approach the matter, and whether kits were available for the project. I
don't know the best way to approach the matter, or whether it is one
that is commonly done within the price ranges mentioned, and that's why
I posted the inquiry in the first place.


Wrong. You posted your *e*nquiry because you were hoping that people would
tell you that your preferred course of action was correct.

Unfortunately, the idea of converting a 30 ft boat to wheel steering, is of
such limited appeal, that you are unlikely to find much support among
sailors. This is because a tiller is much better than a wheel. The only
reason that bigger (35ft+) boats have wheels is that tillers become
impossible to use.



Further, since you don't say anything whatever about

- the equipment/condition of the particular boat
you've looked at (other than that it is designed
with and has a tiller), or


I have a strong preference for wheel steering. I can't explain exactly
why, but I don't like the idea of me and my guests having to jump out of
the way of a long tiller extenting into the cockpit

I have a gut feeling that you haven't sailed very much. If my assumption is
correct, then you should consider using the boat for a year before worrying
about the conversion.



snip
a tiller. Although I'm aware of pros and cons of the two systems, there
are MANY MORE POTENTIAL BUYERS of a 30-foot sailboat having wheel
steering.

That surprises me.




- whether you even care (one way or t'other)
whether if (when?) you sell or trade the wheel
instead of tiller will/won't enhance the liklihood
of a later sale by you or whether you probably
will/won't recoup any of the the dollar cost of conversion,

Your opinion that having wheel steering rather than a tiller won't
enhance the likelihood of a later sale if flat-out wrong. You are, of
course, entitled to your opinion. But in our area, in which there are
lots of relatively new sailboats in the water and at the boat shows, and
in which there are lots of boats for sale, a tiller would be a big
problem in marketing the boat. .


you make it difficult for anyone to offer any (for _you_) probably
reliable suggestions.


Well, if it's too difficult, don't waste any more of your time answering
it.. - However, if you read the note and actually answered the
questions asked, you would find that they really aren't that difficult.

If the answers are so easy, then why can't you answer the questions
yourself?


Arguably the most signficant element of your posting/query is less
what (if any) brand of steering wheel to install (or not), or any
element of sailing, as such, but rather that it suggests the
desirability of your reading and thinking carefully about the issues
raised (and, perhaps, the books reviewed in) the March 1, 2004 issue
of "The New Yorker" magazine re. choice-making:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/art/?040301crbo_books


Read all the books? Great ide!!! - I'll do exactly that, when I get
time to do it. - - But why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before I go further?

Because you are very unlikely to get answers that agree with your
preconceptions.

As you only want to hear ideas that concur with your own, I think that you
would be better off using Google, than asking on Usenet. With Google, you
can choose which answers you want to read. With Usenet, you are going to
have to deal with real opinions. If you cannot accept these without
complaining, then you are not really suited to social interaction.


For
example, what's involved in making such a conversion; does anyone have
experience in such a project, and what were their experience; and, are
there any kits that would simplify the job. In other words, if such a
project is not practicable, or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing the characteristics of
the boat (particularly since I have already sailed on similar Cals
several times.)

I doubt that anybody here has made such a conversion. Most people here are
relatively experienced, and they will view a wheel as a necessary evil on
larger boats.



Regards


Donal
--

wrote:

Re. a proposed purchase for +/- $17,000 of a 1982 Cal. 30, on Thu, 26
Feb 2004, Jim Cate further wrote in pertinent part::


I thought I might get some helpful information
from sailers on the ng who had looked into this
already, so that I would have some knowledte
of what's involved and what price ranges to expect.
- That's why I posted the note in the first place.


And that's why I suggest that it would be desirable for you to verify
whether the +/- $1,500 cost to which you referred was realistic and
gave you the link to the Edson catalog (from which you readily would
have determined that a new purchase just of the equipment if from that
supplier would probably cost in that range quite apart from the labor
and related fiberglassing costs of installation and which would have
also led you to other materials to the effect that other
manufacturers' products are similarly priced).


Obviously, I would "verify" whether the +/- costs was realistic. But
your asserion that I would "readily have determined" what a new purchase
of the equipment from that supplier would probably cost, quite apart
form the labor and related fiberglassing, etc., is preposterous. There
is not listing of all necessary components in the Edson catalog, and
there is no inication that the parts described relaing to steering
conversions would or would not be needed or appropriate for the Cal 30.
The catalog may be helpful for someone who knows what parts are
necessary, but not to someone asking what's involved and what it may cost.


I have a strong preference for wheel steering.


So do I.

Yet I also recognize that many others prefer a tiller and (obviously)
that the boat to which you refer is designed for and presently
equipped with tiller steering.


* * * if I decided to sell the boat (or . . . died and
my wife had to sell the boat), it would be far, far, easier
to sell with a wheel steering system than with a tiller.


Maybe, you can predict the likely market in the Galveston Bay area if
(you don't say: when) you later decide to sell or you die; but, maybe,
you can't. But even if correct, this rejoinder begs the question
whether one reason such a sale will be "easier" (especially if "far,
far" so) is that the price at which such a boat realistically will be
sell-able will not reflect any (much less: anything approaching full)
reimbursement to you of the conversion costs (and, as earlier noted,
maybe you don't care).


If the information I obtained from the charter company is correct, i.e.,
that such conversons can be made for around $1,500, and that customers
of the charter company don't want to rent a boat of this size having
tiller steering, then such a conversion would appear to be a logical and
cost-effective investment. If it can't, then obviously it would not be a
cost-effective investment. (If few sailors want to rent such a boat
without wheel steering, it seems reasonable to assume that few saiors
would want to purchase a boat of this size without wheel steering.
Also, most of those I have spoken to concerning the matter also tell me
that they would not want a boat of this size with tilelr steering.) I
certainly haven't conducted a scientific poll of potential purchasers in
this area (nor have you), so I'm making an estimate based on the
available inforamtion. - But I don't know that this conclusion is sound
or reasonable, which is why I posted the note asking for further
information, whether there are kits for this purpose, and whether others
have had experience in making such conversions.


why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before
I go further? For example, what's involved in making
such a conversion; . . .


You already know: what is "involved" is buying or finding a donator of
used pedestal, wheel, cables, and related equipment

Wrong again. I don't know what is "involved" for converting steering on
a 1982 Cal 30. - That's why I posted my note.

(as, among others,
Edson will tell you and as you readily could have determined by
looking at the Edson catalog

Nope. The Edson catalog doesn't tell me what is involved in making a
conversion for a Cal 30, and I had no way of knowing what parts would be
necessary, what fiberglass work would be involved (for all I knew, they
would provide a SS support that would bolt to the deck with minimum
fiberglas mods) or what labor costs might be involved.

or by telephoning that company);

Which company are you talking about, Edson or Cal??? I would assume that
Cal would be the best source for such information, but it's my
understanding that they are no longer in business. If Edson, how should
I be expected to know that the publishers of the Edson catalog could or
would explain to me what was involved re parts and labor in a conversion
of a 1982 30-foot Cal? Your assumption that I could "readily" figure all
this out from reading the catalog or calling the catalog publishers is
absurd. Particularly since I made it plain that I didn't intend to do
the work myself.

then in
doing the installation/(re)glassing, etc. Further, if (as I presume
is so though you haven't actually said) you're referring to the Cal
9.2 [meter] model, the rudder design almost certainly isn't
susceptible to use of external cabling compared with the need to
install an internal under-deck wheel or rack/pinion; and so the labor
involved ought not be underestimated. Which is also why I suggested
that you verify the price you say had been indicated (but not actually
explicitly/bindingly quoted) to you.

This information is relevant to my inquiry, and it suggests to me that
the job would probably be
impractical relative to the Cal 30. Obviously, it's clear that I should
verify the price before proceeding with any purchase of such a boat. -
Obviously.


. . . does anyone have experience in such a project,
and what were their experience; and, are there any
kits that would simplify the job.


As I told you, Edson will give you a suggested packgage/kit price, and
others probably will do the same.

There's a difference between a "kit" of components necessary to do the
job and a list of parts. I don't see any mention
in your previous note of a "kit" of components necessary for such a
conversion, only
that Edson could provide a list of parts. I had asked whether a kit was
available from Cal or another supplier, since it had been suggested to
me that such kits were available, and that such a kit might simplify the
work and provide some economy relative to buying all the parts
individually.


In other words, if such a project is not practicable,
or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing
the characteristics of the boat (particularly since I
have already sailed on similar Cals several times.)


Apart from the actual net dollar cost for parts/labor, it would be
difficult to believe that (perhaps especially in such a popular
sailing area as Galveston) one could not more or less readily find a
comparable boat which will satisfy your "strong preference for wheel
steering" yet at a comparable price (but with the wheel rather than
tiller already installed/workable).

Yes, there are lots of boats for sale in this area. However, on
balance, this particular boat seems to be a good value relative to other
boats of similar size and construction. It has an extensive list of
equipment, new bottom and new through-hulls, engine in excellent
condition according to the owner, etc. Thus, the equipment list and the
reported condition of the particualar boat, when compared with
comparable boats in the area, seemed to suggest that it may be a viable
choice. However, if the tiller steering is a significant negative
factor and if it can't be modified at a reasonable cost, I probably
don't want to go further with it. Obviously, I would want to have the
boat surveyed to verify its condition.

Jim

Wrong again. I don't know what is "involved" for converting steering on
a 1982 Cal 30. - That's why I posted my note.

Jim, some of the people in this NG wll generally just try to give you a hard
time. The poster you are responding to has no info for you. The Cruising Board
already told you what you needed to know. Unless you're getting that Cal for
VERY cheap, don't get involved in the conversion. It won't be cheap and there
are bound to be headaches along the way. Find a boat with a wheel and be happy.
And you'll be happier still by not feeding the trolls (disguised as sailors) in
this NG.

Best of Luck,

Robert B

Donal wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Query whether you've actually verified that the guesstimated
conversion price to which you refer is realistic/reliable

Nope. I thought I might get some helpful information from sailers on
the ng who had looked into this already, so that I would have some
knowledte of what's involved and what price ranges to expect. - That's
why I posted the note in the first place.


It sounds like you don't recognise helpful suggestions when you get them.

Actually, I do recognize helpful suggestions when I get them. In fact, I
posted the query on another newsgroup and received several helpful
responses, including discussions of actual experiences in making such
conversions.


Again, my note requested suggestions and advice as to the best way to
approach the matter, and whether kits were available for the project. I
don't know the best way to approach the matter, or whether it is one
that is commonly done within the price ranges mentioned, and that's why
I posted the inquiry in the first place.



Wrong. You posted your *e*nquiry because you were hoping that people would
tell you that your preferred course of action was correct.


Interesting. In addition to your sailing expertise, you are also a mind
reader. In fact, however, I wasn't "hoping" for agreement one way or
another.

Unfortunately, the idea of converting a 30 ft boat to wheel steering, is of
such limited appeal, that you are unlikely to find much support among
sailors. This is because a tiller is much better than a wheel. The only
reason that bigger (35ft+) boats have wheels is that tillers become
impossible to use.

I'm aware of advantages of tiller steering. I'm also aware that lots of
sailors interested in boats of this size don't like it.


Further, since you don't say anything whatever about

- the equipment/condition of the particular boat
you've looked at (other than that it is designed
with and has a tiller), or


I have a strong preference for wheel steering. I can't explain exactly
why, but I don't like the idea of me and my guests having to jump out of
the way of a long tiller extenting into the cockpit


I have a gut feeling that you haven't sailed very much. If my assumption is
correct, then you should consider using the boat for a year before worrying
about the conversion.

Is your "gut feeling" related in some respect to your "mind reading"
talents? While I'm sure
there are more experienced sailors than I on the ng, I have in fact
sailed on boats including Endeavor, Valiant, Pearson, ODay, Cal,
Catalinas, and others, and received training from the Annapolis Sailing
School and others. My favorite was a 40-foot Valiant with cutter rig.
Again, I'm sure there are others with more experience on the ng, which
is why I asked the questions.




snip

a tiller. Although I'm aware of pros and cons of the two systems, there
are MANY MORE POTENTIAL BUYERS of a 30-foot sailboat having wheel

steering.

That surprises me.



- whether you even care (one way or t'other)
whether if (when?) you sell or trade the wheel
instead of tiller will/won't enhance the liklihood
of a later sale by you or whether you probably
will/won't recoup any of the the dollar cost of conversion,


In your opinion, of course.


Your opinion that having wheel steering rather than a tiller won't
enhance the likelihood of a later sale if flat-out wrong. You are, of
course, entitled to your opinion. But in our area, in which there are
lots of relatively new sailboats in the water and at the boat shows, and
in which there are lots of boats for sale, a tiller would be a big
problem in marketing the boat. .


you make it difficult for anyone to offer any (for _you_) probably
reliable suggestions.


I'm happy to consider any suggestions offered with a tiny grain of
courtesy, and an acknowledgment that there just might be two sides to an
issue. But I happen to have an aversion to cynics, snobs, and "experts"
who seem to find satisfaction in putting others down.



Well, if it's too difficult, don't waste any more of your time answering
it.. - However, if you read the note and actually answered the
questions asked, you would find that they really aren't that difficult.


If the answers are so easy, then why can't you answer the questions
yourself?

I said that the questions asked in my note were easy, meaning that they
were rather straightforward and could be answered simply by someone with
relevant experience. - For example, I asked whether anyone knew whether
conversion kits (not lists of parts) are available for such work, and
whether anyone had experience relative to such conversions. The reason
I asked the questions, of course, is that I didn't know the answers.


Arguably the most signficant element of your posting/query is less
what (if any) brand of steering wheel to install (or not), or any
element of sailing, as such, but rather that it suggests the
desirability of your reading and thinking carefully about the issues
raised (and, perhaps, the books reviewed in) the March 1, 2004 issue
of "The New Yorker" magazine re. choice-making:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/art/?040301crbo_books


Read all the books? Great ide!!! - I'll do exactly that, when I get
time to do it. - - But why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before I go further?


Because you are very unlikely to get answers that agree with your
preconceptions.

My only preconceptions were that I had been told that the charter
company wouldn't accept such a boat with tiller steering but that they
would be happy to have it if the steering were converted to wheel
steering, and that they further said that such conversions could be
performed for approximately $1,000 to $1,500. From these statements, I
had concluded that, since I wanted to leave the boat with the charter
company, it might be a good idea to investigate further the practicality
and costs of such conversions. I had no opinion whatsoever as to whether
they were correct in telling me that they thought the Cal 30 could be
successfully converted for this price.


As you only want to hear ideas that concur with your own, I think that you
would be better off using Google, than asking on Usenet. With Google, you
can choose which answers you want to read. With Usenet, you are going to
have to deal with real opinions. If you cannot accept these without
complaining, then you are not really suited to social interaction.

You certainly are under no obligation to respond to my notes. Let me
assure you, however, that I can deal with anything you or nospam dish
out. - Try me.


For
example, what's involved in making such a conversion; does anyone have
experience in such a project, and what were their experience; and, are
there any kits that would simplify the job. In other words, if such a
project is not practicable, or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing the characteristics of
the boat (particularly since I have already sailed on similar Cals
several times.)


I doubt that anybody here has made such a conversion. Most people here are
relatively experienced, and they will view a wheel as a necessary evil on
larger boats.

Interesting. That would suggest (as I suspect you intended to infer)
that my preference for wheel steering derives only from the fact that I
must be relatively inexperienced and ignorant of the advantages of a
tiller system. - But it would also suggest that "nospam" is relatively
inexperienced, since he also stated that he preferred wheel steering. -
Did you intend to include both me AND nospam in your "inexperienced,
ignorant novice sailor" classification? However, as stated in my note,
the issue of relevance relative to the conversion of the particular boat
in question was not whether experienced sailors would prefer one or the
other steering system. It was that most potential charterers and
purchasers of such boats seem to prefer wheel steering, and that the
charter company directly informed me that they would not accept the boat
unless a wheel steering system was installed on it, in which case they
would be happy to have it.



Regards


Donal
--

Unfortunately, the idea of converting a 30 ft boat to wheel steering, is of
such limited appeal, that you are unlikely to find much support among
sailors. This is because a tiller is much better than a wheel.


Advantage of a tiller.
Simple system with fewer parts to fail.
Superior feel, especially good for racing.

Advantage of a wheel
Superior ergonomics
Less fatiguing to use
Easier for children and novices
Doesn't sweep cockpit
Allows for close mounting of instruments
Engine controls at fingertips
Lock off cabability a big plus
For many sailors, it's simply more fun
Allows multiple steering positions for helmsman

The idea that "sailors" won't "support" a wheel conversion on a 30 footer makes
little sense. A wheel steered boat is pretty much a "must" for any kind of
charter system. Nearly every 30 footer in production has a wheel, unless they
are heavily slanted to racing. I just think a better approach is to find a
vessel that was wheel steered from the get-go and avoid a major project.

RB

If you want a quote on parts, call West Marine "Edson Tech Hotline"
508-995-9711. You should look at the new West catalog, page 1080.

Frankly, I'd have to agree that doing a conversion like this isn't worth it
unless this is the boat of your dreams, if you can do it yourself cheaply.


--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"I like sailing because it is the sport which demands the least energy" Albert
Einstein



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Re. a proposed purchase for +/- $17,000 of a 1982 Cal. 30, on Thu, 26
Feb 2004, Jim Cate further wrote in pertinent part::


I thought I might get some helpful information
from sailers on the ng who had looked into this
already, so that I would have some knowledte
of what's involved and what price ranges to expect.
- That's why I posted the note in the first place.


And that's why I suggest that it would be desirable for you to verify
whether the +/- $1,500 cost to which you referred was realistic and
gave you the link to the Edson catalog (from which you readily would
have determined that a new purchase just of the equipment if from that
supplier would probably cost in that range quite apart from the labor
and related fiberglassing costs of installation and which would have
also led you to other materials to the effect that other
manufacturers' products are similarly priced).


Obviously, I would "verify" whether the +/- costs was realistic. But
your asserion that I would "readily have determined" what a new purchase
of the equipment from that supplier would probably cost, quite apart
form the labor and related fiberglassing, etc., is preposterous. There
is not listing of all necessary components in the Edson catalog, and
there is no inication that the parts described relaing to steering
conversions would or would not be needed or appropriate for the Cal 30.
The catalog may be helpful for someone who knows what parts are
necessary, but not to someone asking what's involved and what it may cost.


I have a strong preference for wheel steering.


So do I.

Yet I also recognize that many others prefer a tiller and (obviously)
that the boat to which you refer is designed for and presently
equipped with tiller steering.


* * * if I decided to sell the boat (or . . . died and
my wife had to sell the boat), it would be far, far, easier
to sell with a wheel steering system than with a tiller.


Maybe, you can predict the likely market in the Galveston Bay area if
(you don't say: when) you later decide to sell or you die; but, maybe,
you can't. But even if correct, this rejoinder begs the question
whether one reason such a sale will be "easier" (especially if "far,
far" so) is that the price at which such a boat realistically will be
sell-able will not reflect any (much less: anything approaching full)
reimbursement to you of the conversion costs (and, as earlier noted,
maybe you don't care).


If the information I obtained from the charter company is correct, i.e.,
that such conversons can be made for around $1,500, and that customers
of the charter company don't want to rent a boat of this size having
tiller steering, then such a conversion would appear to be a logical and
cost-effective investment. If it can't, then obviously it would not be a
cost-effective investment. (If few sailors want to rent such a boat
without wheel steering, it seems reasonable to assume that few saiors
would want to purchase a boat of this size without wheel steering.
Also, most of those I have spoken to concerning the matter also tell me
that they would not want a boat of this size with tilelr steering.) I
certainly haven't conducted a scientific poll of potential purchasers in
this area (nor have you), so I'm making an estimate based on the
available inforamtion. - But I don't know that this conclusion is sound
or reasonable, which is why I posted the note asking for further
information, whether there are kits for this purpose, and whether others
have had experience in making such conversions.


why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before
I go further? For example, what's involved in making
such a conversion; . . .


You already know: what is "involved" is buying or finding a donator of
used pedestal, wheel, cables, and related equipment

Wrong again. I don't know what is "involved" for converting steering on
a 1982 Cal 30. - That's why I posted my note.

(as, among others,
Edson will tell you and as you readily could have determined by
looking at the Edson catalog

Nope. The Edson catalog doesn't tell me what is involved in making a
conversion for a Cal 30, and I had no way of knowing what parts would be
necessary, what fiberglass work would be involved (for all I knew, they
would provide a SS support that would bolt to the deck with minimum
fiberglas mods) or what labor costs might be involved.

or by telephoning that company);

Which company are you talking about, Edson or Cal??? I would assume that
Cal would be the best source for such information, but it's my
understanding that they are no longer in business. If Edson, how should
I be expected to know that the publishers of the Edson catalog could or
would explain to me what was involved re parts and labor in a conversion
of a 1982 30-foot Cal? Your assumption that I could "readily" figure all
this out from reading the catalog or calling the catalog publishers is
absurd. Particularly since I made it plain that I didn't intend to do
the work myself.

then in
doing the installation/(re)glassing, etc. Further, if (as I presume
is so though you haven't actually said) you're referring to the Cal
9.2 [meter] model, the rudder design almost certainly isn't
susceptible to use of external cabling compared with the need to
install an internal under-deck wheel or rack/pinion; and so the labor
involved ought not be underestimated. Which is also why I suggested
that you verify the price you say had been indicated (but not actually
explicitly/bindingly quoted) to you.

This information is relevant to my inquiry, and it suggests to me that
the job would probably be
impractical relative to the Cal 30. Obviously, it's clear that I should
verify the price before proceeding with any purchase of such a boat. -
Obviously.


. . . does anyone have experience in such a project,
and what were their experience; and, are there any
kits that would simplify the job.


As I told you, Edson will give you a suggested packgage/kit price, and
others probably will do the same.

There's a difference between a "kit" of components necessary to do the
job and a list of parts. I don't see any mention
in your previous note of a "kit" of components necessary for such a
conversion, only
that Edson could provide a list of parts. I had asked whether a kit was
available from Cal or another supplier, since it had been suggested to
me that such kits were available, and that such a kit might simplify the
work and provide some economy relative to buying all the parts
individually.


In other words, if such a project is not practicable,
or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing
the characteristics of the boat (particularly since I
have already sailed on similar Cals several times.)


Apart from the actual net dollar cost for parts/labor, it would be
difficult to believe that (perhaps especially in such a popular
sailing area as Galveston) one could not more or less readily find a
comparable boat which will satisfy your "strong preference for wheel
steering" yet at a comparable price (but with the wheel rather than
tiller already installed/workable).

Yes, there are lots of boats for sale in this area. However, on
balance, this particular boat seems to be a good value relative to other
boats of similar size and construction. It has an extensive list of
equipment, new bottom and new through-hulls, engine in excellent
condition according to the owner, etc. Thus, the equipment list and the
reported condition of the particualar boat, when compared with
comparable boats in the area, seemed to suggest that it may be a viable
choice. However, if the tiller steering is a significant negative
factor and if it can't be modified at a reasonable cost, I probably
don't want to go further with it. Obviously, I would want to have the
boat surveyed to verify its condition.

Jim