Jim Cate wrote in message ...
katysails wrote:
Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'?

Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't think he meant it as a gender specific term....



I would probably be classified as an "old guy" also, since I'm nearing
retirement. Presumably, I will have more free time to spend on a boat
in the next few years, but somewhat less money.

Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many
responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and
therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive
subject that most sailors don't want to talk about?


Jim,
When you ask a specific question concerning a boat in the 30 to 35
foot range, your in a size of boat that many can not utilize fully.
It's to small to live on in gerenal, and its large enough were you
might need another hand.

So first the only people that will answer are the ones that have
boats in the range, and you will get the kind of people answering that
cant make up their minds on what the want or need. Like you they are
always looking for a compromise.

Instead of guessing and caring what other's do, pick out the boat you
like and use it as mush as you like. Even if it that funny looking
morphamac.

I live aboard so I get alot of use out of my boat, Its my home,
office, and getaway all rolled in one. I take it out less than most
people due to the fact it takes much more effort to get underway.

And I have a 13 foot LaBrisa that I take out at least every other
day. Its easy to get underway, just take 2 min. to get ready. And I
can anywere around Kemah, clearlake, taylor lake,anywhere in the bay
systems and it carry 6 adults. And Its great to tow as a lifeboat and
dink. It unsinkable.

I rather have 2 boats that do a specific job well, than 1 boat that
can't do either task well.

Your an engineer right?

Joe








Jim

Scotty said: Oh, OK mister.

That's "Master" to you, bub.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

New gut asked: notice that there weren't very many=20
responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and=20
therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive =

subject that most sailors don't want to talk about?

If I only got to sail my boat one time a year, I would still consider it =
money well spent. The point that I was trying to make earlier is to =
stop looking at the whole thing economically and start looking at it as =
an esoteric experience. If you were buying a boat for business or to =
offset taxes somehow, then sure, you've got to look at all that, but =
when you start writing your equations trying to find break0even points =
for your sailing pleasure, you sore of take the wonderfulness out of the =
whole thing.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

And by the way, new guy Jim, it's "Kate", not Cate...someone spelled =
your last name wrong!

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Jim,=20
One suggestion...subscribe to "Good Old Boat" magazine...it's the best =
that will suit your needs. Oh, and remember, do NOT use a surveyor =
suggested by a broker! Find one independently.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:33:55 -0600, Jim Cate wrote:



katysails wrote:

This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke

with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the
boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years.


Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou
se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did.


In addition to speaking with the brokers, I'm getting some helpful
inputs from the charter company that I may leave the boat with. - They
want to be assured that the boat is reliable, in good working order,
safe, and "saleable" to their clients. My thought is that if in their
experience no one would want to charter a particular boat, the boat
might have resale problems. I would intend to get a survey of both the
boat and the engine, and I'll pay more attention to the survey results
than the brokers.

It's interesting, however, that most of the brokers in this area have
not been high-pressure and in fact have been quite helpful. For
example, one of them I spoke with last weekend concluded that he really
didn't have anything with the characteristics and in the price range I
was looking for (32 to 35 ft., etc., that would qualify for chartering,
etc.). Before I left his office, I asked him what boats he would
consider for the uses I anticipate. - Despite the fact that he wasn't
going to make a sale, he spent a considerable amount of time discussing
a number of different boats, their characteristics, marketing factors,
various costs, resale values, financing etc. He then checked the
dealers' web sites of valuations and recent sales of several boats, and
gave me printouts of recent comparables. He also provided suggestions
regarding negotiating, initial offers, etc., and suggestions on survey
and repair facilities in the area, etc.

Of course, I'm going to place more confidence in the survey report, and
in all the helpful information (taken with a grain of salt) I'm getting
from folks on this ng, than in what a broker tells me. Unfortunately, I
haven't found much published information on the older boats I'm looking at.

Jim


Have you taken a look at the compilations of reviews done by Practical
Sailor? I find them informative and helpful. Buying the reports one
at a time gets expensive, but there are at least two "Buying Guides"
in which they reprinted many of their reviews. Additionally, if you
go to sailnet.com and check the message boards, you may find more of
the boat specific discussion you are looking for in the "Buying a
Boat" forum. If you don't see what you are looking for there, ask
about specific boats and you will likely get some good information
(along with some bad information)

In article , Jim Cate
wrote:

katysails wrote:
Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'?

Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't
think he meant it as a gender specific term....



I would probably be classified as an "old guy" also, since I'm nearing
retirement. Presumably, I will have more free time to spend on a boat
in the next few years, but somewhat less money.

Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many
responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and
therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive
subject that most sailors don't want to talk about?

No, it's a question that makes no sense. You equate more use with
better value for money. OK, fine, this works for you, but I suspect
most of us simply don't think of a boat like that and therefore the
question is irrelevant.

Peter Wiley

In article , Jim Cate
wrote:

katysails wrote:

This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke

with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the
boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years.


Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest
brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby
vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken
out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will
it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as
investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and
fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou
se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then
when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much
enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did.


In addition to speaking with the brokers, I'm getting some helpful
inputs from the charter company that I may leave the boat with. - They
want to be assured that the boat is reliable, in good working order,
safe, and "saleable" to their clients. My thought is that if in their
experience no one would want to charter a particular boat, the boat
might have resale problems.

Jim, the correct way to place a resale value on a boat for personal use
is to assume it'll be zero. That way you'll be under no delusions that
it's an investment and can enjoy it for what it is - a toy to provide
pleasure.

If you do end up selling it, anything you get will be a bonus.

Peter Wiley

Have you taken a look at the compilations of reviews done by Practical
Sailor?.

That would be like buying a car based on Consumer Reports.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Scott Vernon wrote:
"Jim Cate" wrote


Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many
responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and
therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive
subject that most sailors don't want to talk about?


No, quite frankly Jim, it's a stupid question. What does it matter how much
time other people spend on their boat? Are you a sheep? A buddy who had a
power boat used to keep track of what he spent and how much time he used it.
He sold it after 2 years claiming, ''it just isn't worth it''.

Sailing, for most of us, is a passion, not a business. What price do you put
on that perfect sunny, breezy day out on the water, or a moonlit night sail,
or that secluded quiet anchorage watching the sun set?
Sensitive subject? Hell yes!


Scott Vernon
Plowville PA __/)__/)__


It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your
"logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can
only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those
trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water,
it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats
of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit
nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to.

Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I
said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't
continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought
them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently,
perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS,
when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may
think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with
it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for
about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance,
dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of
many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of
others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a
dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that
doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this
kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I
won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to
a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping
children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc.

Jim