katysails wrote:

And by the way, new guy Jim, it's "Kate", not Cate...someone spelled your last name wrong!

Sorry,
Jim

Scott,

I believe you and I have about the right size boat for being able to
single hand. I think this has a lot to do with usage. Question; How
much bigger do you think you could go before wanting a crew to help you
(Needing a crew) sail.

I find as I'm getting older, I'm more at ease with some one else on the
boat. This wasn't always true. I loved those trips by myself with no
time limits or distance limits. Very loose float plans for my kids and
the boat and dog my only companion.

You seem to sail the same way. Do you think a bigger boat would please
you more?

Ole Thom

Jim,
Maybe you had best charter. You're looking upon buying a boat as =
purchasing a thing, rather than an experience. Maybe you should set =
your sites lower and buy a small sailboat that is inexpensive so that =
you can start from scratch and develop the experience...

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

On 10 Mar 2004 04:40:07 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

Have you taken a look at the compilations of reviews done by Practical
Sailor?.

That would be like buying a car based on Consumer Reports.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Are you morally opposed to gathering information before making a
decision? Jim is looking for some information to help him make the
*right* decision for him, starting at a baseline which is pretty close
to zero. It can be fairly daunting for someone starting out trying to
understand all the issues, large and small. I have found Practical
Sailor a good reference over the years. I also read Consumer Reports
before buying a car, and I haven't made a mistake yet

Jim Cate wrote:
It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question.

Well, in that case, you should NOT buy a boat. It is an inherently
illogical thing to do, and will lead to irrecoverable expenditures of money.

The ONLY reason to buy a boat is that one enjoys sailing (or some other
on-water pastime) so much that the expense is worth it. Once you get
over this hurdle, that is the time to start thinking about which
particular boat to buy. However you are still fiddling around in the
starting gate, not sure if you want to run or not...


... Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In that case, the odds against you are astronomical. Very very few women
enjoy sailing... and a big reason for that is the way most men act on
boats. If your wife has not liked sailing up to now, expecting her to
change is downright stupid.

I married a woman who not only loved to sail, but owned a boat herself.
However, I'm a very lucky man.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your
"logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can
only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those
trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water,
it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats
of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit
nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to.

Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I
said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't
continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought
them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently,
perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS,
when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may
think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with
it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for
about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance,
dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of
many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of
others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a
dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that
doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this
kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I
won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to
a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping
children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc.

Jim

If all you want to do is figure out how often the "average" boat owner uses
his boat, hang out at the marina. As someone else put it (Don Casey)

"sailing is a leisure time activity. It should require only discretionary
income, and not all of that. Maybe if you think you had the right boat, YOU
would spend every free minute on the water. The odds are against you. Take a
walk through any marina on a perfect Saturday and compare the number of
empty slips to the number with boats still tied in them. I assure you that
the owners of all those boats intended to use them very weekend, certainly
every sunny weekend. What happened?

Reality. A sunny weekend is also perfect for tennis. Or golf. Or a cookout
with friends. Or working on the lawn. Or a drive to Grandma's. There are
also concerts and weddings, sporting event and sales. And there are weekends
when it is rainy, or cold, or you just don't want to do anything."

The name of the book is "This Old Boat", pretty good reading though I'll
admit I might not ever take on the projects he covers in this book, the
first part talks about boat selection and even the justification for owning.
I own because I want to be able to sail whenever I fell like it. I took up
racing last season (crewing on someone else's boat) and probably logged more
miles under the keel of his boat than my own, to the point where I had
thoughts about selling MY boat. Why didn't I? I still want to own my own
boat, period. It makes no sense on a financial basis, but it's my money
right? Chartering as an alternative to ownership? If you OWN(no lien) your
own boat, one weeklong bareboat charter to a nice destination like the
Caribbean will equal or surpass my total annual expenses associated with
boat ownership. The bottom line, owning a sailboat is not a "rational"
decision. Might be more rational to purchase a used boat rather than new
one, but you can't "justify" the expense. Just something you either do or
don't, like a lot of things in life. Just my $2.
John Cairns

Jim,

Hey Group, don't sell Jim to short. He isn't without experience. He is a
Long Island Sound sailor, with a merchant mariner's license. He is in
another part of the country that is different and trying to come to
grips with it.

Ole Thom

katysails wrote:
Jim,
Maybe you had best charter. You're looking upon buying a boat as purchasing a thing, rather than an experience. Maybe you should set your sites lower and buy a small sailboat that is inexpensive so that you can start from scratch and develop the experience...


Like a new Mac 26M for example? As was discussed in the earlier string,
one option would be to buy a small boat and continue to charter larger
boats from time to time.

Jim

Dave wrote:

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:12:46 -0600, Jim Cate said:


Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats
of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit
nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to.


Having spent a number of years as a boat owner, a number of later years as a
non-owner, and now having bought again, I can tell you that while chartering
may seem to make sense in the abstract, in practice you prolly won't do it.
In the years when I had my previous boat I was on the water nearly every
weekend the weather allowed. During the years as a non-owner I chartered
exactly once and was able to sail 4 days out of a 7 day charter. There's a
big difference between just driving down to the boat on a Friday night, and
making all the needed arrangements for a charter.


Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

I understand your point. Our family spend a number of vacations on
chartered boats, in which we usually chartered the boats (30 to 40 ft)
for a week and lived aboard the boat. This worked out well for us, and
although there are some disadvantages, it's nice to leave the boat with
the charter company if you don't have lots of free time. I'm looking at
boats now because I am transitioning to a work arrangement that will
give me more time for sailing and other interests.

Jim

DSK wrote:

Jim Cate wrote:

It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question.


Well, in that case, you should NOT buy a boat. It is an inherently
illogical thing to do, and will lead to irrecoverable expenditures of
money.

The ONLY reason to buy a boat is that one enjoys sailing (or some other
on-water pastime) so much that the expense is worth it. Once you get
over this hurdle, that is the time to start thinking about which
particular boat to buy. However you are still fiddling around in the
starting gate, not sure if you want to run or not...


Perhaps. But I've only been looking for a few weeks.

... Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so the boat
has to be appealing to her as well.


In that case, the odds against you are astronomical. Very very few women
enjoy sailing... and a big reason for that is the way most men act on
boats. If your wife has not liked sailing up to now, expecting her to
change is downright stupid.


So, if I get a boat, I should get one with autohelm and lines led aft?


I married a woman who not only loved to sail, but owned a boat herself.
However, I'm a very lucky man.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King