Not only are you stupid, but idiotic as well. You're going to
plunk down thousands of $$, but you can't try before you
buy??

Yep.

Jim

what can ya say? jimmy wanted all along nothing so much but to be thought
stupid.

JAXAshby wrote:

SPAM!!

Nope.

Jim

abject stupidity? nah, it's gotta be SPAM!! no one is as stupid as jim claims
himself to be.

It would beyond your abilities.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim


Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told
you

that is

not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.



Especially on April 1.




Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.



No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments
of a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.



You can find dozens of comments that

the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it
could

be

hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you
can

make

18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.


Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There
are
also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that
give more
believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear.
I heard
the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.


In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)


Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook,
line and
sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought
into.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf


I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times.
In a
small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder
why

all

the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.


I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet
list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off
starboard) in
a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots
but
only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with
I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That
21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"


There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 -
5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to
40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close
wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to
weather
with any significant wave action."


Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max.
When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10
mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your
range,
but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens
up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:
"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.




"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway
than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."




I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to
trailer

it to

flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.



According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.


Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal
cruising"

Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with the
comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet
list:"

You keep insisting that while the 26X may have been a piece of ****, the 26M is
a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better in
some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical. Virtually
every comment about the 26X will be more or less true for the 26M. Adding a few
degrees of deadrise to the hull will make the boat handle a bit better in a
chop, but it also slows it down in flat water. Haven't you noticed that the top
speed list for the M is slower than what used to be claimed for the X?

It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it couldn't
get much worse. But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't that
different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been changed.

But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let you
test it?




"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim


Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is

not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.



Especially on April 1.




Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.



No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.



You can find dozens of comments that

the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it
could

be

hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you can

make

18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.


Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There are
also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give
more
believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear. I
heard
the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.


In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)


Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line
and
sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought
into.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf


I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times. In a
small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder why

all

the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.


I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard) in
a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots but
only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That 21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"


There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."


Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10 mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your range,
but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:
"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.




"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."




I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to trailer

it to

flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.



According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.


Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"

Dear Mr. Morris,
We used to let the salesmen take potential buyers out on test sails,
but we ended up losing too many good salesmen, and also suckers, I
mean potential buyers.

Roger Mac


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...


But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let you
test it?

Well, at least you admit it!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Not only are you stupid, but idiotic as well. You're going to
plunk down thousands of $$, but you can't try before you
buy??

Yep.

Jim

Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with the
comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet
list:"

You keep insisting that while the 26X may have been a piece of ****,


Actually, I don't recall saying that the 26x was a piece of ****. I have
noted above several aspects of the 26x that I didn't like which have
been corrected or improved on the 26M.


the 26M is
a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better in
some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical.

How can you possibly believe that? The hull design of the 26M is
substantially and significantly changed, now having with a deep
16-degree V rather than a relatively flat bottom throughout; the swing
keel of the x boat has been replaced by a dagger board that is much more
narrow, and that can be adjusted vertically as desired without altering
the center of lateral resistance, as with a swing keel; the boat no
longer depends on a water ballast exclusively, but additionally includes
permanent ballast to enhance stability and provide greater safety when
motoring without the water ballast. Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing, new chain plates, new standing rigging design, more
attractive and more comfortable cabin, etc., etc.


Virtually
every comment about the 26X will be more or less true for the 26M. Adding a few
degrees of deadrise to the hull will make the boat handle a bit better in a
chop, but it also slows it down in flat water. Haven't you noticed that the top
speed list for the M is slower than what used to be claimed for the X?


For clarity, this is a potential reduction in top speed under power, not
sail. - Yes, I've noticed it, and I'll be happy to sacrifice a little
top speed under power in return for enhanced stability and comfort when
motoring through chop, and for increased speed and pointing ability
under sail.


It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it couldn't
get much worse. But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't that
different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been changed.

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats. But it wasn't designed as a racer, and that's
not my primary interest.


But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let you
test it?


He wasn't "afraid" to let me test it. - He didn't have any of the boats
in stock. He had sold one other one, that arrived later, and he didn't
want me to sail one that had been sold to someone else. He was going to
get only one more in the next five months or so, which I ordered.

As previously explained, I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and
the new model has corrected the several problems I saw with the x model,
while retaining its advantages and versatility. In discussing the boat
with Mac owners, everyone I spoke with who had sailed the 26M was
positive regarding the new boat.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim


Jeff Morris wrote:


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is


not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.



Especially on April 1.





Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.



No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.




You can find dozens of comments that


the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it

could

be


hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you can

make


18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.


Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There are
also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give

more

believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear. I

heard

the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.



In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)


Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line

and

sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought

into.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf



I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times. In a
small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder why

all


the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.


I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard) in
a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots but
only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That 21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"


There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."


Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10 mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your range,
but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:
"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.




"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."




I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to trailer

it to


flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.



According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.


Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"

felton wrote:

On 14 Apr 2004 17:32:12 GMT, (Veridican) wrote:


Jeff,

You say 25 knots is more like a jog in the park and 35 is survival conditions,
and then you say it's no big deal. 25 knots is 21 mph sustained. It's a force 6
wind. In a cruising boat, you should be in harnesses and reefed. In a dinghy
you shouldn't go out at all. I'm not saying it can't be fun, but don't make it
sound like it's a normal sailing experience. To use your own words, It's a jog
in the park.

The Veridican


I think your math needs a second look. 25 knots is roughly 29 mph.

In other words, it's even higher, in mph, than he indicated, which
further emphasizes the point he was making.

Jim

can you say "cognitive diffidence"?

well, I say SPAM!!

Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with
the
comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the
Sailnet
list:"

You keep insisting that while the 26X may have been a piece of ****,


Actually, I don't recall saying that the 26x was a piece of ****. I have
noted above several aspects of the 26x that I didn't like which have
been corrected or improved on the 26M.


the 26M is
a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better
in
some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical.

How can you possibly believe that? The hull design of the 26M is
substantially and significantly changed, now having with a deep
16-degree V rather than a relatively flat bottom throughout; the swing
keel of the x boat has been replaced by a dagger board that is much more
narrow, and that can be adjusted vertically as desired without altering
the center of lateral resistance, as with a swing keel; the boat no
longer depends on a water ballast exclusively, but additionally includes
permanent ballast to enhance stability and provide greater safety when
motoring without the water ballast. Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing, new chain plates, new standing rigging design, more
attractive and more comfortable cabin, etc., etc.


Virtually
every comment about the 26X will be more or less true for the 26M. Adding
a few
degrees of deadrise to the hull will make the boat handle a bit better in a
chop, but it also slows it down in flat water. Haven't you noticed that
the top
speed list for the M is slower than what used to be claimed for the X?


For clarity, this is a potential reduction in top speed under power, not
sail. - Yes, I've noticed it, and I'll be happy to sacrifice a little
top speed under power in return for enhanced stability and comfort when
motoring through chop, and for increased speed and pointing ability
under sail.


It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it
couldn't
get much worse. But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't
that
different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been
changed.

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats. But it wasn't designed as a racer, and that's
not my primary interest.


But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let
you
test it?


He wasn't "afraid" to let me test it. - He didn't have any of the boats
in stock. He had sold one other one, that arrived later, and he didn't
want me to sail one that had been sold to someone else. He was going to
get only one more in the next five months or so, which I ordered.

As previously explained, I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and
the new model has corrected the several problems I saw with the x model,
while retaining its advantages and versatility. In discussing the boat
with Mac owners, everyone I spoke with who had sailed the 26M was
positive regarding the new boat.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim


Jeff Morris wrote:


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is


not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.



Especially on April 1.





Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.



No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of
a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.




You can find dozens of comments that


the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it

could

be


hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you
can

make


18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.


Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There
are
also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give

more

believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear. I

heard

the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.



In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)


Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line

and

sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought

into.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf



I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times.
In a
small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder
why

all


the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.


I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet
list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard)
in
a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots
but
only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That
21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"


There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."


Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10
mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your
range,
but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens
up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:
"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.




"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."




I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to
trailer

it to


flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.



According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.


Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"

JAXAshby wrote:
can you say "cognitive diffidence"?

In other words, you don't really have a substantive answer to my last
note? Is that what you mean, JAX?

Jim




well, I say SPAM!!


Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with

the

comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the

Sailnet

list:"

You keep insisting that while the 26X may have been a piece of ****,


Actually, I don't recall saying that the 26x was a piece of ****. I have
noted above several aspects of the 26x that I didn't like which have
been corrected or improved on the 26M.


the 26M is

a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better

in

some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical.

How can you possibly believe that? The hull design of the 26M is
substantially and significantly changed, now having with a deep
16-degree V rather than a relatively flat bottom throughout; the swing
keel of the x boat has been replaced by a dagger board that is much more
narrow, and that can be adjusted vertically as desired without altering
the center of lateral resistance, as with a swing keel; the boat no
longer depends on a water ballast exclusively, but additionally includes
permanent ballast to enhance stability and provide greater safety when
motoring without the water ballast. Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing, new chain plates, new standing rigging design, more
attractive and more comfortable cabin, etc., etc.


Virtually

every comment about the 26X will be more or less true for the 26M. Adding

a few

degrees of deadrise to the hull will make the boat handle a bit better in a
chop, but it also slows it down in flat water. Haven't you noticed that

the top

speed list for the M is slower than what used to be claimed for the X?


For clarity, this is a potential reduction in top speed under power, not
sail. - Yes, I've noticed it, and I'll be happy to sacrifice a little
top speed under power in return for enhanced stability and comfort when
motoring through chop, and for increased speed and pointing ability
under sail.



It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it

couldn't

get much worse. But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't

that

different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been

changed.

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats. But it wasn't designed as a racer, and that's
not my primary interest.


But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let

you

test it?



He wasn't "afraid" to let me test it. - He didn't have any of the boats
in stock. He had sold one other one, that arrived later, and he didn't
want me to sail one that had been sold to someone else. He was going to
get only one more in the next five months or so, which I ordered.

As previously explained, I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and
the new model has corrected the several problems I saw with the x model,
while retaining its advantages and versatility. In discussing the boat
with Mac owners, everyone I spoke with who had sailed the 26M was
positive regarding the new boat.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim


Jeff Morris wrote:



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...



You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is



not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.



Especially on April 1.






Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.



No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of

a

novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.





You can find dozens of comments that



the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it

could


be



hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you

can

make



18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.


Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There

are

also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give

more


believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear. I

heard


the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.




In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)


Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line

and


sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought

into.


If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf




I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times.

In a

small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder

why

all



the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.


I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet

list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard)

in

a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots

but

only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That

21

mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"


There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."


Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10

mph

if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your

range,

but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens

up

new areas."


From an owner of 4 years:

"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.




"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."





I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to

trailer

it to



flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.



According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.


Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"