"Jim Cate" wrote in message
| Moron, has anyone ever suggested that you ought to think about spouting
| off a little less, and listening to what others are saying, or reading
| their notes, a little more carefully?

Why would I entertain that...???

Has anyone told you that you are
| getting so full of yourself that you're actually loosing touch with
reality?

Daily..... usually by useless dipwads whose opinions count as much than
yours.
Arrogance is a Captain's prerogative..... don't blame me for utilizing a
power granted to me by superior genetics and keen insight, a sharp wit
and....... a god-like bronze tan.

Now that you understand your place in the food chain around here.... I'll
expect more deference and timidity on your part Jim!

CM

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
| If they're using the same molds, how do they manage to produce a deep-V
| hull with a contour substantially different from that of the 26X? And if
| they're using the same molds, how do they get rid of the five-foot
| cavity in which the dagger board nested in the 26X? (Maybe they use some
| dry-wall compound to fill in the cavity, and then paint to match the
| rest fo the hull?) And if they're using the same mold, how do they
| manage to fit the dagger board housing into the hull while adding the
| permanent ballast?

They took an old 26X mould, a pair of shears and some junk plywood to make
the changes.

CM

Hehehe, I strive for juvenile. :-)

She is 18 and has no sense of classic style.

Jim Cate wrote:
I suppose that you are right in one respect. - The MacGregor boats have
incorporated a long list of advantageous features not available in most
displacement boats, and the new Mac 26M carries that tradition forward
as did the earlier models.

You really are addicted to Macgregor advertising, aren't you?


... The Macs were one of the first cruising
sailboats to popularize the use of water ballast, the advantages of
which are so obvious that their competitors (e.g., Hunter, Catalina) are
now offering it also.

Except that the Mac 26X was so poorly designed that it needed to have
lead ballast added. My wife & I owned a water ballasted Hunter 19 for 10
years and it sailed fine... in fact we outsailed Mac 26Xs many times in
it, and a Mac 26M a couple of times.


... Further advantages include positive flotation (the
boats actually float, even if the hull is compromised.

Imagine that... I've been sailing boats with positive flotation since
about 1968.



... Further advantages that are unique with
respect to most of their competition is the ability to "fly away" from
the "displacement-speed-barrier" that keeps most sailboats locked in
their place (unless they are surfing down a wave during a storm).

If that's true, then why is the Mac 26X and Mac 26M so slow under sail,
compared to other boats of similar size? You don't have to look ver far
at all to find 26' boats that will sail rings around it.


... Still
further advantages include the ability to float in waters as shallow as
one foot, and to be beached for picnics, camping, etc.

Comes in very handy, but it's hardly unique to MacGregors. There are
quite a few centerboarders that can be beached, including some 40+ footers.


... A still further
advantage is that they are trailerable, permitting them to be
conveniently relocated to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles from
their usual port.

Comes in handy as long as you have a behemoth SUV to tow it. We used a
minivan with a V-6 for our trailerable... got about 25 MPG with it. It
is nice to be able to cruise far waters on a short vacation.

But again, this is hardly unique to the Mac 26X or Mac 26M. If you knew
more than what Macgregor told you, you'd find that out.


All in all, Jeff, you are quite correct in suggesting that the Mac 26M
incorporates many of the same features and characeristics developed over
the years in earlier models. It merely carries the tradition forward to
a higher level. - Very perceptive comment on your part.

And when are you going to actually look at a Mac 26X and compare hull
shapes, and realize it's the exact same as your boat? Not very
perceptive on your part.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I know a guy who has a 26X and he keeps up with everyone. I confided in me
one day that his 50 horse iron wind is always idling in gear. It keeps his
batteries charged. hehehehe

Jeff Morris wrote:
"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

You keep claiming these are "different" boats. Whether the changes are
sufficient to call them different is academic. The bottom line, however, is
that the company has a long history of building cheap boats and making
exaggerated marketing claims targeting inexperienced sailors. Nothing seems
different in this regard.


I suppose that you are right in one respect. - The MacGregor boats have
incorporated a long list of advantageous features not available in most
displacement boats, and the new Mac 26M carries that tradition forward
as did the earlier models. The Macs were one of the first cruising
sailboats to popularize the use of water ballast, the advantages of
which are so obvious that their competitors (e.g., Hunter, Catalina) are
now offering it also. Further advantages include positive flotation (the
boats actually float, even if the hull is compromised. - Imagine that. -
A boat that actually floats!)


Flotation is nothing new - I sailed for a dozen years before using a boat
without positive flotation. It has long been required by law for boats a bit
smaller than yours.

And did I say that the Mac's are the ONLY boats to provide positive
flotation, Jef? I can't seem to find a statement to that effect in my
previous note. - What I DID say was that the Macs included that
particular advantage. And if you're honest, you will admit that only a
relatively small number of cruising sailboats incorporate positive
flotation. - If you don't believe me, try conducting a poll of this
newsgroup, asking them whether their boats would float if the hull were
compromised. Or whether their boat would quickly sink to the bottom
under such circumstances.


. Further advantages that are unique with
respect to most of their competition is the ability to "fly away" from
the "displacement-speed-barrier" that keeps most sailboats locked in
their place (unless they are surfing down a wave during a storm).


Your boat can't do that under sail unless it is used recklessly - without
ballast in a strong wind. THis is exactly the type of exaggeration I'm talking
about. They make it sound like it performs better than any other boat, even
under sail, when in fact its a dog.

Once again, Jeff, did I say that I was talking about planing UNDER SAIL?
The facts are that very few of the boats owned by contributors to this
ng could plane REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE POWERED OR UNDER SAIL. -
Unless, of course,they were caught in a storm and planing down a wave.
It's also true that the Mac CAN plane under sail, under certain
conditions.




Still further advantages include the ability to float in waters as
shallow as one foot, and to be beached for picnics, camping, etc. A
still further advantage is that they are trailerable, permitting them to
be conveniently relocated to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles
from their usual port.


Most of what you're talking about are standard features, long available on a
large number of boats.

Really Jeff? Why don't you ask the contributors to this ng whether their
boats can be beached for picnics, float in one foot of water, trailered
down the coast to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles away, etc.
The point isn't that the Mac is the only boat to incorporate each and
every feature named above. Rather, the point is that it offers a package
of advantageous features not often available in a 26-foot cruising
sailboat.


You can claim the 26X has a unique combination of these
features, but the question the prospective buyer must answer is whether this is
enough to overcome the obvious shortcomings.


And what are those shortcomings, Jeff? (Remembering that in my case, we
sail in the Galveston Bay area in which there are hundreds of square
miles of waters of limited depth.) My boat is fast, comfortable, and
stable in severe conditions. Also, it incorporates a number of controls
and lines that can be adjusted for tuning the boat to achieve
substantial speed.

Jim


All in all, Jeff, you are quite correct in suggesting that the Mac 26M
incorporates many of the same features and characeristics developed over
the years in earlier models. It merely carries the tradition forward to
a higher level. - Very perceptive comment on your part.


And a damning one.


Damming? I suppose you mean damming for its competitors who don't offer
anywhere near the same package of features, yet charge substantially more?

Jim

DSK wrote:

Jim Cate wrote:

I suppose that you are right in one respect. - The MacGregor boats
have incorporated a long list of advantageous features not available
in most displacement boats, and the new Mac 26M carries that tradition
forward as did the earlier models.


You really are addicted to Macgregor advertising, aren't you?

If you can point to errors in my notes, I'll accept that criticism.
Until then, however, you are just another of the "Moorons" who aren't
willing to put up or shut up.



... The Macs were one of the first cruising sailboats to popularize
the use of water ballast, the advantages of which are so obvious that
their competitors (e.g., Hunter, Catalina) are now offering it also.


Except that the Mac 26X was so poorly designed that it needed to have
lead ballast added. My wife & I owned a water ballasted Hunter 19 for 10
years and it sailed fine... in fact we outsailed Mac 26Xs many times in
it, and a Mac 26M a couple of times.


Really? From other ngs, it seems that lots of owners still prefer the 26X.



... Further advantages include positive flotation (the boats actually
float, even if the hull is compromised.


Imagine that... I've been sailing boats with positive flotation since
about 1968.


Interesting. And how many of the contributors to this newsgroup would
you think own boats with positive flotation? - Maybe 20%? Or 10%? Or
Maybe five percent?





... Further advantages that are unique with respect to most of their
competition is the ability to "fly away" from the
"displacement-speed-barrier" that keeps most sailboats locked in their
place (unless they are surfing down a wave during a storm).


If that's true, then why is the Mac 26X and Mac 26M so slow under sail,
compared to other boats of similar size? You don't have to look ver far
at all to find 26' boats that will sail rings around it.


Where, and when, have you seen such races involving the 22M?



... Still further advantages include the ability to float in waters as
shallow as one foot, and to be beached for picnics, camping, etc.


Comes in very handy, but it's hardly unique to MacGregors. There are
quite a few centerboarders that can be beached, including some 40+ footers.



And, did I say it was "unique" to the MacGregors? What I said was that
they offered a package of advantageous features not often found in a
such a cruising sailboat. If you don't believe me, why not conduct a
poll of the contributors to this ng.


... A still further advantage is that they are trailerable,
permitting them to be conveniently relocated to a desired sailing area
hundreds of miles from their usual port.


Comes in handy as long as you have a behemoth SUV to tow it. We used a
minivan with a V-6 for our trailerable... got about 25 MPG with it. It
is nice to be able to cruise far waters on a short vacation.

With the water ballast removed, the boat weighs only 3,500 pounds. I
pull it with my 2002 Mercury sedan, which I also drive to work, to the
symphony, to the opera, etc.

But again, this is hardly unique to the Mac 26X or Mac 26M. If you knew
more than what Macgregor told you, you'd find that out.


Again, did I say that the Mac was "unique" in being trailerable? -
Perhaps you should read my notes a little more carefully. (And once
again, what percentage of those owned by contributors to this ng do you
think are trailerable?)

All in all, Jeff, you are quite correct in suggesting that the Mac 26M
incorporates many of the same features and characeristics developed
over the years in earlier models. It merely carries the tradition
forward to a higher level. - Very perceptive comment on your part.


And when are you going to actually look at a Mac 26X and compare hull
shapes, and realize it's the exact same as your boat? Not very
perceptive on your part.


Once again, Doug, you're dead wrong. When are you going to actually
compare the two boats?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



Jim

Capt. Mooron wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
| Moron, has anyone ever suggested that you ought to think about spouting
| off a little less, and listening to what others are saying, or reading
| their notes, a little more carefully?

Why would I entertain that...???

Has anyone told you that you are
| getting so full of yourself that you're actually loosing touch with
reality?

Daily..... usually by useless dipwads whose opinions count as much than
yours.
Arrogance is a Captain's prerogative..... don't blame me for utilizing a
power granted to me by superior genetics and keen insight, a sharp wit
and....... a god-like bronze tan.

Now that you understand your place in the food chain around here.... I'll
expect more deference and timidity on your part Jim!

CM


I think all those years in the sun have finally got to you, Moron. My
suggestion is that you consider getting some professional help. - Maybe
there are some new medications that might still be somewhat effective,
even in your advanced condition.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:
....
Flotation is nothing new - I sailed for a dozen years before using a boat
without positive flotation. It has long been required by law for boats a
bit
smaller than yours.

And did I say that the Mac's are the ONLY boats to provide positive
flotation, Jef? I can't seem to find a statement to that effect in my
previous note. - What I DID say was that the Macs included that
particular advantage. And if you're honest, you will admit that only a
relatively small number of cruising sailboats incorporate positive
flotation. - If you don't believe me, try conducting a poll of this
newsgroup, asking them whether their boats would float if the hull were
compromised. Or whether their boat would quickly sink to the bottom
under such circumstances.

As I said, flotation is required on smaller boats, and is pretty standard on
trailer boats and water ballast boats. In fact, I would guess that most boats
26 feet and under that don't have significant ballast have positive flotation.

Although not common in larger boats, my boat is 36 feet and has positive
flotation. It would not sink if the hull was compromised.

Your boat can't do that under sail unless it is used recklessly - without
ballast in a strong wind. THis is exactly the type of exaggeration I'm
talking
about. They make it sound like it performs better than any other boat, even
under sail, when in fact its a dog.

Once again, Jeff, did I say that I was talking about planing UNDER SAIL?
The facts are that very few of the boats owned by contributors to this
ng could plane REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE POWERED OR UNDER SAIL. -

Again, my boat will fly away from the "displacement-speed-barrier," and it will
do it under sail. A few days ago I averaged over 9 knots for about 15 miles
under main alone.


Unless, of course,they were caught in a storm and planing down a wave.
It's also true that the Mac CAN plane under sail, under certain
conditions.

That's not what most of the owners report. I've only heard of this when sailing
without ballast in strong winds, a practise considered rather dangerous for a
Mac.






Still further advantages include the ability to float in waters as
shallow as one foot, and to be beached for picnics, camping, etc. A
still further advantage is that they are trailerable, permitting them to
be conveniently relocated to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles
from their usual port.


Most of what you're talking about are standard features, long available on a
large number of boats.

Really Jeff? Why don't you ask the contributors to this ng whether their
boats can be beached for picnics,

My boat can be beached.

float in one foot of water,

Mine takes almost 3 feet, but with the optional daggerboards its about 18
inches. Funny, though, they only called it a different version of the same
boat!

trailered

Mine is too big to be trailered, but others of its style can be.

down the coast to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles away, etc.
The point isn't that the Mac is the only boat to incorporate each and
every feature named above. Rather, the point is that it offers a package
of advantageous features not often available in a 26-foot cruising
sailboat.

Actually, almost all of the features can be had in other boats. There are only
two things that make it unique: First, the hull sacrifices considerable sailing
performance to give speed under power. However, the claims of speed are
exaggerated, since they are based on a totally stripped boat; in reality they
are only about 50% faster than many sailboats under power. Second, they are
built to a lower quality standard than many boaters consider prudent. This
allows them to be cheaper, and allows you to claim that this is a unique
combination that no other builder can match.



You can claim the 26X has a unique combination of these
features, but the question the prospective buyer must answer is whether this
is
enough to overcome the obvious shortcomings.


And what are those shortcomings, Jeff?

Very poor performance under sail. Serious stability issues - the 26X has been
known to roll over in clam conditions. Poor resale - I've seen 5 year old 26X's
offered for about half price.

(Remembering that in my case, we
sail in the Galveston Bay area in which there are hundreds of square
miles of waters of limited depth.) My boat is fast, comfortable, and
stable in severe conditions.

Tell that to the parents of the children who died because they were trapped
below when their boat rolled in calm conditions.

Also, it incorporates a number of controls
and lines that can be adjusted for tuning the boat to achieve
substantial speed.

Total nonsense. It's stuff like this that marks you as a novice that believed
all the hype. They added a traveler and you think its a performance machine.

If you want a boat with all the features you list, you could get one of these:

http://www.geminicatamarans.com/Performance_Telstar.htm

It would sail and power circles around yours, is infinately safer, draws one
foot, can be trailered, has positive floatation, and has a nicer interior. This
price is somewhat higher, but the depreciation is probably less.