I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3 days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt. Does anyone know a good place to get these rebuilt and what the
cost is? The second option is to replace just the engine and overhaul the
drives myself. Does anyone know where to buy just a new engine and what the
cost is? My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement. My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit? I know the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how difficult
is this?

The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo units
identical to the Yanmar units? Can you buy them for a better price? Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives? How difficult are they to
adapt? What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional shaft
and prop? On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!) or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and why?

How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27 to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Thanks in advance.
Marg

Somebody has to ask ...

I don't suppose this is a Norseman 430 recently purchased at auction?

If so, I was curious if Norseman will be able to supply a new keel?

As to your query, I can't really answer. I suppose part of it is do you want
"new" or do you prefer "cheap"? Since the engines are already getting along in
years, replacing to not seem to bad an options, especially if you can get a
reasonable price and some salvage value for the old stuff. BTW, a friend
replaced a 3GM30 with a 3YM30 on a Prout had very little trouble - the swap was
done mostly in one afternoon. The problems involved mating to the Silette
(sp?) drive, and the extra space taken by the heat exchanger, or something like
that.

As to adding power, you should talk to the builder. If its a Norseman, the 3GM
horsepower is proportional to what I'm used to in my PDQ (10K pounds, 2GM
engines). I'm pretty happy with the speed now, but if there was a magic way to
increase it 30%, I'd take it! The builder should be able to tell you this,
and you might look at the specs for powercats which are sometimes offered with
different engines.

At any rate, please keep us informed about your project - its sounds
interesting.

Good luck,
Jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup
at the deli."






"plugster" wrote in message
k.net...
I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3 days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt. Does anyone know a good place to get these rebuilt and what the
cost is? The second option is to replace just the engine and overhaul the
drives myself. Does anyone know where to buy just a new engine and what the
cost is? My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement. My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit? I know the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how difficult
is this?

The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo units
identical to the Yanmar units? Can you buy them for a better price? Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives? How difficult are they to
adapt? What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional shaft
and prop? On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!) or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and why?

How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27 to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Thanks in advance.
Marg

Hello Jeff,

Yes, it is the one from the auction. I will make a new keel for the one
side. Maybe pulling a mold off the other once that one is fixed. There is
another catamaran in the same yard about 100 feet away that they are
remaking from scratch both keels and this is not hard or that expensive to
do. The engine replacement is the biggest single cost at about $20 K for
both if I replace with new.

I will give Voyage an email and see what they say but I also like to get a
few independent opinions.

Thanks
Mark

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Somebody has to ask ...

I don't suppose this is a Norseman 430 recently purchased at auction?

If so, I was curious if Norseman will be able to supply a new keel?

As to your query, I can't really answer. I suppose part of it is do you
want
"new" or do you prefer "cheap"? Since the engines are already getting
along in
years, replacing to not seem to bad an options, especially if you can get
a
reasonable price and some salvage value for the old stuff. BTW, a friend
replaced a 3GM30 with a 3YM30 on a Prout had very little trouble - the
swap was
done mostly in one afternoon. The problems involved mating to the
Silette
(sp?) drive, and the extra space taken by the heat exchanger, or something
like
that.

As to adding power, you should talk to the builder. If its a Norseman,
the 3GM
horsepower is proportional to what I'm used to in my PDQ (10K pounds, 2GM
engines). I'm pretty happy with the speed now, but if there was a magic
way to
increase it 30%, I'd take it! The builder should be able to tell you
this,
and you might look at the specs for powercats which are sometimes offered
with
different engines.

At any rate, please keep us informed about your project - its sounds
interesting.

Good luck,
Jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send bac
k soup
at the deli."






"plugster" wrote in message
k.net...
I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and
have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3
days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt. Does anyone know a good place to get these rebuilt and what
the
cost is? The second option is to replace just the engine and overhaul
the
drives myself. Does anyone know where to buy just a new engine and what
the
cost is? My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement. My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks
like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced
the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit? I know
the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how
difficult
is this?

The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo
units
identical to the Yanmar units? Can you buy them for a better price?
Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives? How difficult are they
to
adapt? What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional
shaft
and prop? On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!)
or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and
why?

How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27
to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Thanks in advance.
Marg

ROFLMAO!
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

plugster wrote:
I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3 days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

Not the best treatment IMHO. They should have been washed in fresh
water, had the heads pulled & dried, oil changed, and immediately run.
BUt that's water over the dam at this point.


I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt.

Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


... My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement.

If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.

... My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit?

I personally have not. But I am somewhat familiar with a smaller
Norseman and I wonder if you have the space to install them... and if
so, will access to larger units be a maintenance headache?

... I know the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how difficult
is this?

Considering the fiberglass work you're already committed to, it may be
easiest to saw the sterns off, put the engines & drives in, and then
fiberglass the sterns back in place


The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo units
identical to the Yanmar units?

No

... Can you buy them for a better price?

???
I've never heard anybody use the words "Volvo" and "better price" in the
same sentence before.

I have a number of friends with Volvo saildrives and they all report
that the units work wonderfully but are $$$$ to maintain.

... Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives?

Some. Yanmars probably the best.

... How difficult are they to
adapt?

If you can be casual about sawing a big hole in the hull, easy. If
you're squeamish about it, then very difficult to impossible.

... What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional shaft
and prop?

See above. You're going to have to reengineer the back ends of the hulls
to change engine configurations. I happen to like the concept of the
V-drive but have never ever seen an installation that wasn't a
nightmare. I don't know why this is.



... On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!) or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and why?

Personally I like folding props on boats that sail fast.


How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27 to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Most people are in love with horsepower for it's own sake.

IMHO it's a bad idea. You will gain 10% speed, perhaps 15%, and burn 4/3
the fuel; and that's if you carefully match the props size & pitch. If
you don't do the homework carefully (or pay an expert to do it) then
you'll gain less speed and burn twice the fuel. You'll add weight to the
boat and bury the stern. You will increase the draft. You will have less
access for maintenance. Many people think that increased horsepower
gives you better maneuverability, but remember that water is
incompressible. You just make more noise & froth. I could go on and on,
but this is probably the highlights...

Interesting project. I wonder why the owner did not keep the boat and
put back in commissionn. Good luck with it, hope to hear more from you.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
plugster wrote:
I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and
have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3
days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

Not the best treatment IMHO. They should have been washed in fresh
water, had the heads pulled & dried, oil changed, and immediately run.
BUt that's water over the dam at this point.


I also agree but there is nothing I can do about it now.


I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt.

Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


I can easily reinstall them myself in about a day each. I have done this
type of work before. I also have a quote of $1100 each to install new ones
of the same basic type. The new engines cost about $8500 each plus about
$250 each shipping.


... My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement.

If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.


I am also a bit sceptical and am sure there will be a few problems fitting
them. But others have done this swap and have said it was simple and took
less than a day with 2 people.

... My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks
like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced
the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit?

I personally have not. But I am somewhat familiar with a smaller
Norseman and I wonder if you have the space to install them... and if
so, will access to larger units be a maintenance headache?


The 40 hp version is only 1.5 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider. I know
that even this can be a problem but it looks like it should not be an issue.
The SD40 drive on the 40 HP also has a better reputation and is easier to
maintain. I think you need to haul the boat to change the oil in the SD20
but you can do it in from the inside with the SD40. Has anyone any comments
on what one is better?

... I know the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how
difficult
is this?

Considering the fiberglass work you're already committed to, it may be
easiest to saw the sterns off, put the engines & drives in, and then
fiberglass the sterns back in place


I sure hope not! I also do not think (hope?) that it is a big problem
getting the engines in or out of the engine compartment.


The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo
units
identical to the Yanmar units?

No

... Can you buy them for a better price?

???
I've never heard anybody use the words "Volvo" and "better price" in the
same sentence before.

I have a number of friends with Volvo saildrives and they all report
that the units work wonderfully but are $$$$ to maintain.

... Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives?

Some. Yanmars probably the best.


I think that I will be sticking with the Yanmars.

... How difficult are they to
adapt?

If you can be casual about sawing a big hole in the hull, easy. If
you're squeamish about it, then very difficult to impossible.

... What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional shaft
and prop?

See above. You're going to have to reengineer the back ends of the hulls
to change engine configurations. I happen to like the concept of the
V-drive but have never ever seen an installation that wasn't a
nightmare. I don't know why this is.



Unless this produced a huge advantage I think that I will stay with the
saildrives.


... On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!) or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and
why?

Personally I like folding props on boats that sail fast.


I like them too but $1400 each!!! Ouch.


How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27
to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Most people are in love with horsepower for it's own sake.

IMHO it's a bad idea. You will gain 10% speed, perhaps 15%, and burn 4/3
the fuel; and that's if you carefully match the props size & pitch. If
you don't do the homework carefully (or pay an expert to do it) then
you'll gain less speed and burn twice the fuel. You'll add weight to the
boat and bury the stern. You will increase the draft. You will have less
access for maintenance. Many people think that increased horsepower
gives you better maneuverability, but remember that water is
incompressible. You just make more noise & froth. I could go on and on,
but this is probably the highlights...


The 40 hp engine also has a larger drive and a larger prop. It is my
understanding that this also makes the drive a bit more efficient so there
is more like a 20%+ increase in speed for the 38% increase in power and fuel
consumption. One other advantage of the 40 hp is that it develops the 40 hp
at 3000 rpm but the 29 hp is at 3600 rpm. The added weight of the 40 hp
over the 29 hp is 98 lbs each so I do not think that this is major factor.

Interesting project. I wonder why the owner did not keep the boat and
put back in commissionn. Good luck with it, hope to hear more from you.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Thanks for your input.
Mark

Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


plugster wrote:
I can easily reinstall them myself in about a day each. I have done this
type of work before.

Yeah, it's not rocket science but it can sure be a PITA. Getting all the
auxiliaries hooked up is the touchy part, and time consuming too.

If you can doa significant part of it yourself then IMHO that tilts the
equation towards rebuilding/reinstalling the old engines. Shopping
around for a diesel shop is a catch-as-can process. I wish I had some
good advice.


If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.



I am also a bit sceptical and am sure there will be a few problems fitting
them. But others have done this swap and have said it was simple and took
less than a day with 2 people.

Then it's a question of time/money. You have a number of other projects
to get on with, so the less time you spend futzing with this, the sooner
you're sailing. It may be that it's worth the higher price for new
engines, and you'll spend less time monkeying around with the reinstall.



The 40 hp version is only 1.5 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider....
The 40 hp engine also has a larger drive and a larger prop. It is my
understanding that this also makes the drive a bit more efficient so there
is more like a 20%+ increase in speed for the 38% increase in power and fuel
consumption. One other advantage of the 40 hp is that it develops the 40 hp
at 3000 rpm but the 29 hp is at 3600 rpm. The added weight of the 40 hp
over the 29 hp is 98 lbs each so I do not think that this is major factor.

Yes it is. 200# added disp, at the stern, plus higher fuel consumption
(have you thought about putting in bigger tanks?), is an issue on a
sailing cat IMHO. If you like the idea of sailing slower plus having to
scrape barnacles off the stern platforms, then I guess it's no big deal.

It sounds like you're leaning towards the bigger engines anyway. Like I
said, most people seem to have a love affair with horsepower. I don't
share it, maybe I got it out of my system or maybe I'm just jealous

DSK

Hello DSK,

I took another look at the actual sail drives including the insides and they
look great. I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each. So I think I am just going to replace the engines only
and overhaul the saildrives. This will keep the same weight and power but
at least they will be new engines and the cost is less then 1/2 of going
with the new engines and drives.

I was and still am planning on adding bigger tanks.

Thanks for you input.
Mark


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


plugster wrote:
I can easily reinstall them myself in about a day each. I have done
this
type of work before.

Yeah, it's not rocket science but it can sure be a PITA. Getting all the
auxiliaries hooked up is the touchy part, and time consuming too.

If you can doa significant part of it yourself then IMHO that tilts the
equation towards rebuilding/reinstalling the old engines. Shopping
around for a diesel shop is a catch-as-can process. I wish I had some
good advice.


If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.



I am also a bit sceptical and am sure there will be a few problems
fitting
them. But others have done this swap and have said it was simple and
took
less than a day with 2 people.

Then it's a question of time/money. You have a number of other projects
to get on with, so the less time you spend futzing with this, the sooner
you're sailing. It may be that it's worth the higher price for new
engines, and you'll spend less time monkeying around with the reinstall.



The 40 hp version is only 1.5 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider....
The 40 hp engine also has a larger drive and a larger prop. It is my
understanding that this also makes the drive a bit more efficient so
there
is more like a 20%+ increase in speed for the 38% increase in power and
fuel
consumption. One other advantage of the 40 hp is that it develops the
40 hp
at 3000 rpm but the 29 hp is at 3600 rpm. The added weight of the 40 hp
over the 29 hp is 98 lbs each so I do not think that this is major
factor.

Yes it is. 200# added disp, at the stern, plus higher fuel consumption
(have you thought about putting in bigger tanks?), is an issue on a
sailing cat IMHO. If you like the idea of sailing slower plus having to
scrape barnacles off the stern platforms, then I guess it's no big deal.

It sounds like you're leaning towards the bigger engines anyway. Like I
said, most people seem to have a love affair with horsepower. I don't
share it, maybe I got it out of my system or maybe I'm just jealous

DSK

plugster wrote:
Hello DSK,

Please call me Doug. No need to be formal


I took another look at the actual sail drives including the insides and they
look great.

Good! AFAIK they are sealed and if no salt water got in them, they are
most likely fine.

.... I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each.

Now that sounds like a good price.

.... So I think I am just going to replace the engines only
and overhaul the saildrives. This will keep the same weight and power but
at least they will be new engines and the cost is less then 1/2 of going
with the new engines and drives.

That sounds great. The new engines will be good for peace of mind.


I was and still am planning on adding bigger tanks.

I'm considering adding some bladder tanks. There are some issues on
installation, but (again) it's not rocket science and I feel they will
be more compact & less trouble. This spring I replaced the fuel supply
system in our boat (a more challenging job than I thought it would be)
and made provisions for future additions & upgrades.



Thanks for you input.

You're welcome. Good luck with your project!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each.

New 3 cyl. Yanmars for $3995? Could I have the name of that dealer?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"