out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

gonefishiing wrote:

what would you have done differently?

Hailed them on the radio to reduce/remove doubt regarding their intentions?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

gf, that is a crock of squat.

a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least
until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and

b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for
veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and

c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots.

*if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some
time.

don't give up your day job. fiction writing is not likely to make you any
money for the foreable future.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 4:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for. You
should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking about you.

As for who had "right of way" (not that anyone actually has ROW), you were the
"standon" vessel, but that status is overridden by your responsibility under
Rule 9, Narrow Channels:

"(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall
not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only
within a narrow channel or fairway."

The meaning of "shall not impede" is vague - technically it means you have to
allow them a clear path to get around, but in the dark, and given that you can't
really anticipate their needs, you should consider the other vessels effectively
standon and stay well clear.

The phrase "constrained by draft" does not appear in the Inland Rules and has no
bearing here. And unless I missed something, why would you claim the freighter
was ahead of the tow on a pecking order? They are both power vessels, meeting
more of less head on. Or did they end up in a crossing situation? Probably
they negociated this on VHF 13.




"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

Good idea, in our neck of the woods we have a fair amount of large
commercial vessels, mainly freighters, they usually have the ROW, I always
assume that they can't see me or aren't looking, especially at night. One
definite advantage we have here is that they usually stay in their channels,
so having them do something unexpected isn't an issue. I've only heard a
freighter sound their horn on one occasion, a Wednesday night race(still
daylight) at the time we were surprised, it wasn't as if we couldn't see
him! BTW, there was a thread posted here a while back about a near miss
involving a freighter and sailboat in Chesapeake Bay, the freighter did
actually go aground to avoid a collision, which they are obliged to do under
the COLREGS, but that isn't something I would ever depend on, regardless of
the size of the vessel. Again, to some extent "stand on" and "give way" are
somewhat meaningless as all vessels are charged with avoiding collisions, I
would say that the only other thing you might have done is attempt to hail
them on the radio and ask their intentions.
John Cairns
"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted
Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the tow
lights..

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, "gonefishiing" wrote:
[i]
[In an near commercial shipping lanes on the
L.I.S.] out for a late night sail last week, which
i do a lot . . . . i spot a . . . tug and barge and . . .
realize . . . he is headed right at me and steaming.
* * * [Soon thereafter] i spot another ship
(freighter) steaming [more or less parallel to me]
and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross
his bow without problem and also because [if he
is going where i speculate] he needs to turn behind
my stern . . . .

[ SNIPPED: ruminations about having "assum[ed]"
might do depending on "possibilities" about the poster
further speculates the freighter would "need" to
do, if his guess about the possibilites he made was
correct. ]

[As it turned out] they passed "safely" at my stern,
. . . . [but] really too close for comfort . . . .

not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained
by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies.
they each had a mile of room . . . behind me . . . to
manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose to approach so closely, as my actions were
clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and
meant to give each a wide berth . . . . and for
whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took
the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge
gave way

what would you have done differently?

This is essentially the classic "no brainer" with the better and
anyway more important question is what ought you have done
differently:

Especially for folks who sail "a lot" (whether day or night) in the
area to which you refer -- unless, based on very careful and very well
experienced supported observation, it is _very_ clear that the smaller
sailboat will certainly be able to avoid collision assuming _not_ what
you did but, instead, that the tug/barge and freigher are and will
turn onto and (despite shinging a bright flash-light on one's sails)
will remain on a direct/collision course -- your attempt to "assume"
what the other vessels will do based on what you believed to be
"possibilities" in light of what you legalistically argue to be a
"relative" rule is, to put it politely, nuts.

To the contrary, _regardless_ what the printed rule may appear to say,
it is plain from the above that, though you escaped disaster, you
certainly do here attempt to "negate [your] responsibility" because
there is a much simpler "rule" (albeit of real-life - and, sometimes,
of [otherwise avoidable] death, even if not clearly published by the
USCG or in "Sailing for Idiots" and it is simply this:

Except for the above-noted qualificationk sailboats ought take action
(and also: responsiblity) to stay out of the way of on-coming
tugs/barges and freighters, especially when (as you say occurred for
you) they appear to be within two miles away, EVEN IF they do not
clearly appear to be on-coming. I.e., PRESUME that they are out to
kill you, then take the appropriate evasive action. Its pretty
simple. Andeven (and, perhaps especially) on "dark nights" pretty
clear. And simple.


Granted, in the L.I.S. area to which you refer, some sailers behave
otherwise and, apparently especially on Wed. or Thurs. racing nights,
occasonally challenges the tug/barge or freigher (with resulting
whistle-blowing and frustrated commercial captains screaming on the
VHF). But for those who want to continue to sail "a lot" at night
(and, for that matter, during the day) in that area, the better
"assumption" for you would have been your answer to the question:

If both other boats do not see me (even if I believe they do see me)
and if both also alter their course so that they will be headed
directly for me if I don't alter my course, where in light of what I
do see ought I go to avoid a collision?

That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted
Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to
the tow
lights..