Although I'm a little experienced at sailing, I'm still learning a lot of
the little incidental things. Such as pulling out of a dock. We have a
Hunter 310 (a little "beamy" and our slip is narrow) that is moored in the
SF Bay area. We have less than 2 feet of total clearance between the boat
and the dock at the widest point. Our slip is about 1/2 way down the berths
with slips on both sides of the passageway. The passageway is probably 40 -
50 feet wide. We have an "upwind berth" which faces to the south (normal
summer wind direction).

The Marina is surrounded by homes and the wind is usually blocked pretty
well by the wind from the south by other rows of sailboats. However the
wind from the east, west, and north are not that blocked. To make things
more interesting our exit from the slip is to the east, which means I have
to back out of the slip to the right. The boat pulls to port when in
reverse.

Here is the fun part. During this time of the year, the wind comes from a
variety of directions. When the wind comes from the east (port side of the
boat when in the slip) it's a challenge getting out of the slip. The first
time I backed out under these conditions I was just out of the slip, and
turning the boat to starboard when the wind pushed the bow back around. No
matter what I did, I couldn't get the boat turned into the wind and was
being pushed by the wind down the marina. I finally spotted an open slip
and pulled in. We ran a line off the bow and I backed out again, but this
time had the bow held to the dock. I managed to get the boat turned into
the wind, picked up my partner (2 man crew that day) and sailed off.

A few days ago, we had the east winds again, but this time with a little bit
of north. After reading up, I tried to run a line off the starboard stern
to pull the stern around as I backed out. This SEEMED to be working until I
tried to pull next to the slip to pick up my partner, and the north effect
of the wind started pushing my starboard into the parked boats. We managed
to finally get some forward momentum and move foward while fending off the
boats. I couldn't pick up my partner and had to pull around to the downwind
side of the berths and pick her up there. The wind was only about 3 - 4
kts.

I know it's been a long explaination, but now I'm wondering how to pull out
under these conditions and pick up my crew before leaving.

Any suggestions???


--
John Lechmanik

To replay directly, correct the address and remove the spam filter.

John Lechmanik wrote:
Although I'm a little experienced at sailing, I'm still learning a lot of
the little incidental things. Such as pulling out of a dock.

Some of the skills that make for successful sailing have nothing to do
with actually sailing! But maneuvering a boat is an interesting challenge.


Here is the fun part. During this time of the year, the wind comes from a
variety of directions. When the wind comes from the east (port side of the
boat when in the slip) it's a challenge getting out of the slip. The first
time I backed out under these conditions I was just out of the slip, and
turning the boat to starboard when the wind pushed the bow back around. No
matter what I did, I couldn't get the boat turned into the wind and was
being pushed by the wind down the marina.

Could you have backed up, stern into the wind, and gotten down the
fairway? It looks funny but it works.

A couple of points to keep in mind, please forgive me if you already
know these things. The basics always bear repeating....

Know your prop walk. You should have a good sense of how hard the boat
will try to swing in reverse and in forward, and whether it will swing
more if throttled up gently or if gunned. Usually, gunning it when in
gear will produce a short burst of prop walk before the boat starts to
accelerate forward (or aft, if in reverse). You can use this effect!

Another thing to bear in mind is that from a standing start, or when
moving very slowly, the boat will turn *much* tighter one way than the
other... when prop walk and helm (prop wash against the rudder) are both
pushing the stern the same way. I bet the time you couldn't get the bow
into the wind, you were trying to turn it the "wrong" way.

The bow always tries to swing downwind. If you use prop wash (as opposed
to prop walk) to try and force it into the wind from a standing start,
or while movng slowly, you will fail if the wind is above a certain
strength (another factor to get a feel for) and you will always end up
going considerably sideways.

In reverse, you have no prop wash effect. You're in free fall until the
boat gains enough way that flow over the rudder will steer her. Boats
have considerable "rotational momentum" so get her turning the way you
want her to go, before sticking it in reverse. You can use this effect
to counter prop walk and back up straight.... people who claim you can't
back up sailboats straight don't know enough to be worth listening to
IMHO...

The best thing to do is practice. Take the boat out in a more open area,
where you can practice maneuvering under power. Note how long it takes
to bring the boat to a stop, that's the first and most basic step. Note
your RPMs and how the boat accelerates at different throttle settings,
also how much prop walk there is. Sit still for a while and note how the
bow swings downwind. Practice turning both ways, both with and against
prop walk, practice backing up straight, practice backing up in a
controlled 'S' with some guide mark(s). The key is to gain some
confidence in how the boat will react, how to make it do what you want
consistently. A big part of this is to observe and know what the boat
wants to do, and use those tendencies as much as you can.

Hope this helps.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
John Lechmanik wrote:
Although I'm a little experienced at sailing, I'm still learning a
lot of
the little incidental things. Such as pulling out of a dock.

Some of the skills that make for successful sailing have nothing to
do
with actually sailing! But maneuvering a boat is an interesting
challenge.


Here is the fun part. During this time of the year, the wind comes
from a
variety of directions. When the wind comes from the east (port
side of the
boat when in the slip) it's a challenge getting out of the slip.
The first
time I backed out under these conditions I was just out of the
slip, and
turning the boat to starboard when the wind pushed the bow back
around. No
matter what I did, I couldn't get the boat turned into the wind and
was
being pushed by the wind down the marina.

Could you have backed up, stern into the wind, and gotten down the
fairway? It looks funny but it works.

This is true, for most parts..

A couple of points to keep in mind, please forgive me if you already
know these things. The basics always bear repeating....

Know your prop walk. You should have a good sense of how hard the
boat
will try to swing in reverse and in forward, and whether it will
swing
more if throttled up gently or if gunned. Usually, gunning it when in

gear will produce a short burst of prop walk before the boat starts
to
accelerate forward (or aft, if in reverse). You can use this effect!

Another thing to bear in mind is that from a standing start, or when
moving very slowly, the boat will turn *much* tighter one way than
the
other... when prop walk and helm (prop wash against the rudder) are
both
pushing the stern the same way. I bet the time you couldn't get the
bow
into the wind, you were trying to turn it the "wrong" way.

Sounds like it.

The bow always tries to swing downwind. If you use prop wash (as
opposed
to prop walk) to try and force it into the wind from a standing
start,
or while movng slowly, you will fail if the wind is above a certain
strength (another factor to get a feel for) and you will always end
up
going considerably sideways.

In reverse, you have no prop wash effect. You're in free fall until
the
boat gains enough way that flow over the rudder will steer her.

Not so Doug.. You can obtain quite a force sideways not moving at all
and the rudder not being a factor at all.


Boats
have considerable "rotational momentum" so get her turning the way
you
want her to go, before sticking it in reverse. You can use this
effect
to counter prop walk and back up straight.... people who claim you
can't
back up sailboats straight don't know enough to be worth listening to

IMHO...

Agreeded, What is important is learning when flow across your rudder
overpowers walking. One could push off the stern opposite of the way
the props walks hard throttle blast to slow to allow flow over the
rudder to overtake walk and point the require way if walk in not the
way you want to turn. Could also power a 360 with walk and wash, looks
funny, but not as funny as backing the whole length of the cut.



The best thing to do is practice. Take the boat out in a more open
area,
where you can practice maneuvering under power. Note how long it
takes
to bring the boat to a stop, that's the first and most basic step.
Note
your RPMs and how the boat accelerates at different throttle
settings,
also how much prop walk there is. Sit still for a while and note how
the
bow swings downwind. Practice turning both ways, both with and
against
prop walk, practice backing up straight, practice backing up in a
controlled 'S' with some guide mark(s). The key is to gain some
confidence in how the boat will react, how to make it do what you
want
consistently. A big part of this is to observe and know what the boat

wants to do, and use those tendencies as much as you can.

Hope this helps.


And the basic knowledge of spring lines... and the proper times and
ways to use them, should keep you out of trouble in high winds.

Joe



Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Comments interspersed....

"John Lechmanik" wrote in message
...
Although I'm a little experienced at sailing, I'm still learning a lot of
the little incidental things. Such as pulling out of a dock. We have a
Hunter 310 (a little "beamy" and our slip is narrow) that is moored in the
SF Bay area. We have less than 2 feet of total clearance between the boat
and the dock at the widest point. Our slip is about 1/2 way down the
berths with slips on both sides of the passageway. The passageway is
probably 40 - 50 feet wide. We have an "upwind berth" which faces to the
south (normal summer wind direction).

Normal summer wind in the bay comes from NW or W not south. Are you sure
you're not getting some other effect? Where are you located? I have my boat
and the school boats located in Sausalito. We have a Yamaha 30, which isn't
beamy at all, but your Hunter sounds like a nice boat. I'm sure it's just a
matter of practice.

The Marina is surrounded by homes and the wind is usually blocked pretty
well by the wind from the south by other rows of sailboats. However the
wind from the east, west, and north are not that blocked. To make things
more interesting our exit from the slip is to the east, which means I have
to back out of the slip to the right. The boat pulls to port when in
reverse.

It always makes for interesting. g You have to use the prop walk to your
advantage.

You can also mitigate its effect by using the throttle firmly but not for an
extended period. This doesn't mean gunning it excessively. Give some
throttle, then back off and put it in neutral. The prop walk will go away,
but of course, you'll have to put the boat in gear and do it again.

Here is the fun part. During this time of the year, the wind comes from a
variety of directions. When the wind comes from the east (port side of
the boat when in the slip) it's a challenge getting out of the slip. The
first time I backed out under these conditions I was just out of the slip,
and turning the boat to starboard when the wind pushed the bow back
around. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the boat turned into the
wind and was being pushed by the wind down the marina. I finally spotted
an open slip and pulled in. We ran a line off the bow and I backed out
again, but this time had the bow held to the dock. I managed to get the
boat turned into the wind, picked up my partner (2 man crew that day) and
sailed off.

You can also back down the slip area if necessary. Sometimes, we back the
school boat all the way up the line of slips to dock her... usually when
short handed. It works but takes practice. Try practicing backing, etc.,
away from docks to mooring balls or something. This will get you a lot of
practice without doing damage. You should get to the point where you can
back the boat in quite a straight line.

A few days ago, we had the east winds again, but this time with a little
bit of north. After reading up, I tried to run a line off the starboard
stern to pull the stern around as I backed out. This SEEMED to be working
until I tried to pull next to the slip to pick up my partner, and the
north effect of the wind started pushing my starboard into the parked
boats. We managed to finally get some forward momentum and move foward
while fending off the boats. I couldn't pick up my partner and had to
pull around to the downwind side of the berths and pick her up there. The
wind was only about 3 - 4 kts.

My preference would be to leave the dock with the entire crew if at all
possible. Could it be a current issue also? 3-4 kts wind is hardly anything
for a boat that size, especially if you're using the engine properly.

Jonathan

I know it's been a long explaination, but now I'm wondering how to pull
out under these conditions and pick up my crew before leaving.

Any suggestions???


--
John Lechmanik

To replay directly, correct the address and remove the spam filter.

Yeah... what Doug said also... g

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
John Lechmanik wrote:
Although I'm a little experienced at sailing, I'm still learning a lot of
the little incidental things. Such as pulling out of a dock.

Some of the skills that make for successful sailing have nothing to do
with actually sailing! But maneuvering a boat is an interesting challenge.


Here is the fun part. During this time of the year, the wind comes from
a variety of directions. When the wind comes from the east (port side of
the boat when in the slip) it's a challenge getting out of the slip. The
first time I backed out under these conditions I was just out of the
slip, and turning the boat to starboard when the wind pushed the bow back
around. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the boat turned into the
wind and was being pushed by the wind down the marina.

Could you have backed up, stern into the wind, and gotten down the
fairway? It looks funny but it works.

A couple of points to keep in mind, please forgive me if you already know
these things. The basics always bear repeating....

Know your prop walk. You should have a good sense of how hard the boat
will try to swing in reverse and in forward, and whether it will swing
more if throttled up gently or if gunned. Usually, gunning it when in gear
will produce a short burst of prop walk before the boat starts to
accelerate forward (or aft, if in reverse). You can use this effect!

Another thing to bear in mind is that from a standing start, or when
moving very slowly, the boat will turn *much* tighter one way than the
other... when prop walk and helm (prop wash against the rudder) are both
pushing the stern the same way. I bet the time you couldn't get the bow
into the wind, you were trying to turn it the "wrong" way.

The bow always tries to swing downwind. If you use prop wash (as opposed
to prop walk) to try and force it into the wind from a standing start, or
while movng slowly, you will fail if the wind is above a certain strength
(another factor to get a feel for) and you will always end up going
considerably sideways.

In reverse, you have no prop wash effect. You're in free fall until the
boat gains enough way that flow over the rudder will steer her. Boats have
considerable "rotational momentum" so get her turning the way you want her
to go, before sticking it in reverse. You can use this effect to counter
prop walk and back up straight.... people who claim you can't back up
sailboats straight don't know enough to be worth listening to IMHO...

The best thing to do is practice. Take the boat out in a more open area,
where you can practice maneuvering under power. Note how long it takes to
bring the boat to a stop, that's the first and most basic step. Note your
RPMs and how the boat accelerates at different throttle settings, also how
much prop walk there is. Sit still for a while and note how the bow swings
downwind. Practice turning both ways, both with and against prop walk,
practice backing up straight, practice backing up in a controlled 'S' with
some guide mark(s). The key is to gain some confidence in how the boat
will react, how to make it do what you want consistently. A big part of
this is to observe and know what the boat wants to do, and use those
tendencies as much as you can.

Hope this helps.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Remember the forces you are dealing with: prop walk (to port in reverse and
to starboard in forward), prop wash, wind and current. Plan accordingly.

It seems to me that in an east wind you'd want to back all of the way out of
the fairway. First of all, you've got the prop walk working to your
advantage (pulling to port). The east wind will push the bow down, which is
want you want.

It sounds uninviting and I am not terribly experienced either. However, I
have learned it's better to back out all the way than trying to fight a wind
pushing your bow in the wrong direction. Give it a try on a relatively calm
day.

Hey Jonathan (and the rest who replied),

Well the wind direction isn't exact, I rounded it to make it simpler. But
over in Richmond (Marina Bay), the wind somes from the southwest normally
during the summer (I've windsurfed out of the same area for years).
Sometimes more south, sometimes more west, but pretty much southwest
average. The upwind berths are facing in that direction, I rounded it to
South to make things simpler to explain :-)

As to being "beamy" the boat is 10'10" and the slip is 13'. I look like a
big pregnant guppy compared to the other boats around me. It's tight, but
doable.

The problem is that propwalk moves me in the direction oposite the turn I
have to make to pull out so I can leave the marina in a forward direction.
So yes, this is my "bad turn" direction. I thought about the reverse
option, but at the end of my row is the shallow water. The clearance from
the end of my row to the shallow rocks isn't much longer than my boat
length. Plenty of room when it's not crowded, but I think I would have been
a tad nervous backing out the entire length towards the rocks. But another
option to consider.

As to current, the really isn't that much since I am at the end of the water
flow (next to the walls) and at the time of launch, it was near max high
tide. As to the wind, I measured it right before backing out and got 3 - 4
kts. I didn't measure it the first time I had problems, and I think the
wind was stronger that time. It is POSSIBLE that if I had backed out a
little stronger (not in reverse idle) I could have made it this time, but I
thought it would be a good chance to practice backing out using a rear
spring line for when I had stronger winds. The result was a very ugly
picture, lucky for me, it was a Friday and nobody was around.

Although it's been a few years since my ASA Basic Coastal Cruiser course,
docking was the area that I needed the most practice. As long as things are
calm, I never had a problem. But throw in some cross wind, and all bets
were off. The problem I found in the class was I came in to light (in and
out of neutral and idle) and didn't have enough momentum (my instructor told
me this) to overcome any wind or current. Now that I own a boat, I don't
really want to sit around waiting for the wind to be "perfect". And given
the boat's larger size (compared to the slip anyway) it makes it much more
of a challenge.

I agree with the "more practice is needed". It's tough to play around the
dock when the wind is blowing and the bay looks great. But around the
corner from my dock area is the pumpout station and it has a bit more room.
Plus I tend to sail midweek, so I guess I'll have to go practice some :-)

I appreciate the help, from the gist of things, I get that this should be
easily doable, but I need a lot more practice....


--
John Lechmanik

To replay directly, correct the address and remove the spam filter.


"JG" wrote in message
...
Comments interspersed....

"John Lechmanik" wrote in message
...
Normal summer wind in the bay comes from NW or W not south. Are you sure
you're not getting some other effect? Where are you located? I have my
boat and the school boats located in Sausalito. We have a Yamaha 30, which
isn't beamy at all, but your Hunter sounds like a nice boat. I'm sure it's
just a matter of practice.

The Marina is surrounded by homes and the wind is usually blocked pretty
well by the wind from the south by other rows of sailboats. However the
wind from the east, west, and north are not that blocked. To make things
more interesting our exit from the slip is to the east, which means I
have to back out of the slip to the right. The boat pulls to port when
in reverse.

It always makes for interesting. g You have to use the prop walk to your
advantage.

You can also mitigate its effect by using the throttle firmly but not for
an extended period. This doesn't mean gunning it excessively. Give some
throttle, then back off and put it in neutral. The prop walk will go away,
but of course, you'll have to put the boat in gear and do it again.

Here is the fun part. During this time of the year, the wind comes from
a variety of directions. When the wind comes from the east (port side of
the boat when in the slip) it's a challenge getting out of the slip. The
first time I backed out under these conditions I was just out of the
slip, and turning the boat to starboard when the wind pushed the bow back
around. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the boat turned into the
wind and was being pushed by the wind down the marina. I finally spotted
an open slip and pulled in. We ran a line off the bow and I backed out
again, but this time had the bow held to the dock. I managed to get the
boat turned into the wind, picked up my partner (2 man crew that day) and
sailed off.

You can also back down the slip area if necessary. Sometimes, we back the
school boat all the way up the line of slips to dock her... usually when
short handed. It works but takes practice. Try practicing backing, etc.,
away from docks to mooring balls or something. This will get you a lot of
practice without doing damage. You should get to the point where you can
back the boat in quite a straight line.

A few days ago, we had the east winds again, but this time with a little
bit of north. After reading up, I tried to run a line off the starboard
stern to pull the stern around as I backed out. This SEEMED to be
working until I tried to pull next to the slip to pick up my partner, and
the north effect of the wind started pushing my starboard into the parked
boats. We managed to finally get some forward momentum and move foward
while fending off the boats. I couldn't pick up my partner and had to
pull around to the downwind side of the berths and pick her up there.
The wind was only about 3 - 4 kts.

My preference would be to leave the dock with the entire crew if at all
possible. Could it be a current issue also? 3-4 kts wind is hardly
anything for a boat that size, especially if you're using the engine
properly.

Jonathan

I know it's been a long explaination, but now I'm wondering how to pull
out under these conditions and pick up my crew before leaving.

Any suggestions???


--
John Lechmanik

To replay directly, correct the address and remove the spam filter.

John Lechmanik wrote:


If your planing on being at the same dock for long term, then perhaps
you should go to a left hand prop.

Joe

In reverse, you have no prop wash effect. You're in free fall until
the
boat gains enough way that flow over the rudder will steer her.


Joe wrote:
Not so Doug.. You can obtain quite a force sideways not moving at all
and the rudder not being a factor at all.


Right, we were already discussing prop walk (and perhaps 'kick' would be
a better term for the prop stream against the rudder than 'prop wash'
since it might be confused with 'prop walk').

The issue is that when you start backing down from minimal way forward,
you have quite limited options to steer the boat until it gains enough
sternway to steer by the flow over the rudder. Whatever the wind & prop
walk are going to do to you, you have to allow for in advance... and
maybe counter with a little pre-rotation of the boat as you come to a
stop. That's what I meant by "free fall."

The two keys to maneuvering IMHO are 1- thinking ahead and 2- being
totally familiar with your control of the boat & it's reactions.

DSK

DSK wrote:
In reverse, you have no prop wash effect. You're in free fall until
the
boat gains enough way that flow over the rudder will steer her.


Joe wrote:
Not so Doug.. You can obtain quite a force sideways not moving at
all
and the rudder not being a factor at all.


Right, we were already discussing prop walk (and perhaps 'kick' would
be
a better term for the prop stream against the rudder than 'prop wash'

since it might be confused with 'prop walk').

The issue is that when you start backing down from minimal way
forward,
you have quite limited options to steer the boat until it gains
enough
sternway to steer by the flow over the rudder.

agreeded

Whatever the wind & prop
walk are going to do to you, you have to allow for in advance... and
maybe counter with a little pre-rotation of the boat as you come to a

stop. That's what I meant by "free fall."

Oh OK... Nothing like a capt Ron style docking, Half speed 45 degree
angle to the dock then full astern...walking your stern in(free fall)to
a perfect butterfly soft landing.

The two keys to maneuvering IMHO are 1- thinking ahead and 2- being
totally familiar with your control of the boat & it's reactions.

3- practice

Joe

DSK