my impression of the
Beneteau is essentially my impression of eurostyling in general. Its
like listening to Abba and calling it music. Yeah, its fun now, but
really no substance.
My impression of Catalina is that they've figured out how to do
something well without costing a fortune. They are not ultra-expensive

but truly functional at reasonable cost, the essence of good
engineering.



The above scary comments come from a sock-puppet or maybe a new voice
here...who knows? But it does bring forth an interesting question. Why
do you sail? I certainly don't want a "practical" boat. I've already
owned a Catalina 27 and Pearson 30....both very practical. They weren't
the best sailboats, not too fast or fun, but solid and capable boats.
Why buy a "flashy" fast boat? Why listen to Abba?
Well, maybe because you like to "sail" and your tastes in music are
without bounds and pretensions. It could be because you've sailed a
Catalina 27, 28, 30, 34, 36 and 400 and found them "practical" to the
point of being soulless. Much as I loath to say it, Donal was right. A
boat like his first series IS more fun...not because of the styling,
but because it has speed and subtle feedback missing from more
"practical" designs. Once you sail a good performing boat, piloting a
Catalina is almost a chore. If you're older, or just out for the
sights, a sailing pig may be fine...and I have no problem with that.
But if the thrill of sailing itself is what you crave, the word
"practical" doesn't work. Speed is all about fads and what's current.
The new C&Cs are distinctive as are the 1st series as are any
performance boat. The 35s5 is OLD compared to them, but still holds her
own.
So...if you love sailing (something people like Scotty, Jeff, and John
C. would know nothing about), you buy a boat that sails well and
fast...a boat with a sensitive helm that will challenge and grow with
you.
And if you want to just bounce around out there, hoping for occasional
conditions that will get your tub moving like a sailboat...a Catalina
28, Siedlemann 30, Hunter, Beneteau Oceanus, O'Day, PDQ 36, or Coronado
will do just fine.
Some of us want a bit more....and enjoy listening to an old Abba song
from time to time. Fun aint a crime, but practicality sure shouldn't
mix with passion when it can be avoided.


RB
35s5...a fun boat with Abba on the Ipod
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
my impression of the
Beneteau is essentially my impression of eurostyling in general. Its
like listening to Abba and calling it music. Yeah, its fun now, but
really no substance.
My impression of Catalina is that they've figured out how to do
something well without costing a fortune. They are not ultra-expensive

but truly functional at reasonable cost, the essence of good
engineering.



The above scary comments come from a sock-puppet or maybe a new voice
here...who knows? But it does bring forth an interesting question. Why
do you sail? I certainly don't want a "practical" boat. I've already
owned a Catalina 27 and Pearson 30....both very practical. They weren't
the best sailboats, not too fast or fun, but solid and capable boats.
Why buy a "flashy" fast boat? Why listen to Abba?
Well, maybe because you like to "sail" and your tastes in music are
without bounds and pretensions. It could be because you've sailed a
Catalina 27, 28, 30, 34, 36 and 400 and found them "practical" to the
point of being soulless. Much as I loath to say it, Donal was right. A
boat like his first series IS more fun...not because of the styling,
but because it has speed and subtle feedback missing from more
"practical" designs. Once you sail a good performing boat, piloting a
Catalina is almost a chore. If you're older, or just out for the
sights, a sailing pig may be fine...and I have no problem with that.
But if the thrill of sailing itself is what you crave, the word
"practical" doesn't work. Speed is all about fads and what's current.
The new C&Cs are distinctive as are the 1st series as are any
performance boat. The 35s5 is OLD compared to them, but still holds her
own.
So...if you love sailing (something people like Scotty, Jeff, and John
C. would know nothing about), you buy a boat that sails well and
fast...a boat with a sensitive helm that will challenge and grow with
you.
And if you want to just bounce around out there, hoping for occasional
conditions that will get your tub moving like a sailboat...a Catalina
28, Siedlemann 30, Hunter, Beneteau Oceanus, O'Day, PDQ 36, or Coronado
will do just fine.
Some of us want a bit more....and enjoy listening to an old Abba song
from time to time. Fun aint a crime, but practicality sure shouldn't
mix with passion when it can be avoided.


RB
35s5...a fun boat with Abba on the Ipod
NY

Still rationalizing....................

I think the disagreement comes down to why we sail and we all have
different reasons. For me, there is some thrill to sailing but not
that much. Mostly I like cruising and being "out there". Navigation
is like magic for me, the thrill of using basic trigonometry to find
position is my thrill and every time I plot my position it makes an odd
connection with something . I do not expect anyone else to understand
or appreciate this but thats ok. I'd be shocked if my boat impressed
anybody by her looks as I care little for looks. She is old, her
topsides are chalky and her black anodized mast has many dings, but her
rigging is all new and she sails very well.
My impression is that while I sail for antisocial reasons, Cap'n Rob
sails for social reasons. His boat seems ideal for why he sails but
his mistake is that he thinks others sail for his reasons.
This difference in perspective was made clear to me yesterday. Six
months ago I joined the local "Yat" club (and have felt out of place
since). I happen to have a slip right in front of the clubhouse and a
lot of people have asked about my homebuilt nesting dinghy that rests
on my foredeck. I always thouhgt they were admiring it so I would go
into of how well she works etc. Yesterday, I overheard someone saying
how tacky it looks there covering my deck, especially right in front of
the clubhouse. All along, these people were not admiring my great
functional dinghy, they were wondering when I would remove it. As I
have made a NEw Years resolution to try to get along better with
others, I'll offer to move to a more distant slip.
So, Rob, ya got a nice boat .....for you, but wouldnt be my choice. So
tell me, are the toe rails riveted? They always looked to me like a
sudden gust would rip em right off.

"Ragtime" with Neil Youngs "Thrashers" on the MP3

For me, there is some thrill to sailing but not
that much.


Well there you have it.
And the toe railes are backed with SS plates as in the 32s5 and 38s5.
The discontinous rod rigging is fed through the deck and anhcored with
massive SS fittings set into glass. Chainplate failure on these boats
is virtually impossible. Her steering system is Whitlock geared R&P,
not a sloppy cable based setup, her fit and finish below was judged as
very fine by two surveys and most aspects of her design work better
than any other cruising boat I've sailed, including my nice C&C 32 and
the 37 I sailed...both very good boats. As I said these frist series
boats are not typical of Beneteau's construction used currently and
were priced very high when sold here. The interiors were shipped from
France, the hulls made in the USA. The boat won design awards and was
even featured in MOMA magazine. It's also a fast and winning race boat
for those who don't want to cruise. If you know an experienced
surveyor, ask him about the 35s5 as I did. The boat has some negatives,
totally missed by the folks here of course, but is far better built
than the current crop of Beneteau's. FYI, I used to "bash" Beneteau and
still think their current boats (though better sailing designs than
Catalina) are a bit cheap, especially below. A new 36.7 is a great
performance boat, but it's interior is pretty awful for fit and finish.

Here's the 36.7 nav station for example...poor seating room and a
rather small table.
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/4/2/0/1/1420148_6.jpg

Here's my 35s5 Nav station. Good room and a large table that slides
back when not in use. There's also about 50% more storage. It's
superior design and looks more nautical...for those of us who like to
have "fun."
http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/images/int01.jpg

And those curved doors close with near air-tight perfection...unlike
most of the Tartan, C&C, J-Boat and even a Bristol 35.5 we looked at.
In some cases quality in boats appears to be based more on reputation
than reality. Most of the Cape Dory's we looked at (we were toying with
the idea of a heavy slow boat for an insane few weeks) were in great
shape. The Cape Dory lives up to it's rep, even better than Island
Packet.

RB
35s5
NY

I hope you enjoy her (I mean the boat).

wrote:
I think the disagreement comes down to why we sail and we all have
different reasons.

Sure.

.... For me, there is some thrill to sailing but not
that much.

Have you sailed any boats that provide thrills? You seemed
pretty excited about the Mini-Cup(s) when you first got them
launched.

Try one of the higher performance one-design boats. Sailing
can definitely be a physical challenge and a thrill.




..... I'd be shocked if my boat impressed
anybody by her looks as I care little for looks.

Utility is beauty.


.....
So, Rob, ya got a nice boat .....for you, but wouldnt be my choice.

Do you think there is an actual boat?


.... So
tell me, are the toe rails riveted? They always looked to me like a
sudden gust would rip em right off.


Don't think so. For one thing, that would require being out
in the actual wind.


"Ragtime" with Neil Youngs "Thrashers" on the MP3


What about 'Sedan Delivery'? One of my all-time faves.

DSK

I tend to agree with Rob's opinions in several respects. - Sailing
isn't a "practical" endeavor, after all, and a "practical" boat sort of
misses the point. Although I appreciate the capabilities of heavier
boats built for safety and survivability, I personally enjoy a lighter,
more responsive boat. - To me, they're simply more fun to sail, which is
why I go sailing in the first place. (Obviously, "fun to sail" means
different things to different folks.) One analogy of "practical" vs
"fun" is like the difference between driving a Porshe 911 or a Ferrari
(light, lightly built, responsive cars in which the driver feels the
road and has greater control over the car's response, etc., as compared
to something like a Lincoln Town Car, in which the driver and passengers
are comfortable despite varying road conditions, etc., but which doesn't
provide the driving experience of a sports car. Of course, it's
obviously a matter of personal preference, and the Lincoln would be more
practical for extended trips, etc. In the same vein, I can understand
why some sailors prefer heavily built sailboats from builders with
established reputations, adapted for long blue-water crossings, and
also, why others prefer the responsiveness of lighter, more responsive
boats (such as the Mac 26M). But selecting a boat because it's "better
built" or more "practical," or because it will get you more respect from
your fellow sailors, etc. when you actually aren't going to take it on
extended crossings that would utilize its capabilities, etc., doesn't
make sense. As Rob points out, the bottom line is: is it fun to sail?

Jim



Capt. Rob wrote:

For me, there is some thrill to sailing but not
that much.


Well there you have it.
And the toe railes are backed with SS plates as in the 32s5 and 38s5.
The discontinous rod rigging is fed through the deck and anhcored with
massive SS fittings set into glass. Chainplate failure on these boats
is virtually impossible. Her steering system is Whitlock geared R&P,
not a sloppy cable based setup, her fit and finish below was judged as
very fine by two surveys and most aspects of her design work better
than any other cruising boat I've sailed, including my nice C&C 32 and
the 37 I sailed...both very good boats. As I said these frist series
boats are not typical of Beneteau's construction used currently and
were priced very high when sold here. The interiors were shipped from
France, the hulls made in the USA. The boat won design awards and was
even featured in MOMA magazine. It's also a fast and winning race boat
for those who don't want to cruise. If you know an experienced
surveyor, ask him about the 35s5 as I did. The boat has some negatives,
totally missed by the folks here of course, but is far better built
than the current crop of Beneteau's. FYI, I used to "bash" Beneteau and
still think their current boats (though better sailing designs than
Catalina) are a bit cheap, especially below. A new 36.7 is a great
performance boat, but it's interior is pretty awful for fit and finish.

Here's the 36.7 nav station for example...poor seating room and a
rather small table.
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/4/2/0/1/1420148_6.jpg

Here's my 35s5 Nav station. Good room and a large table that slides
back when not in use. There's also about 50% more storage. It's
superior design and looks more nautical...for those of us who like to
have "fun."
http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/images/int01.jpg

And those curved doors close with near air-tight perfection...unlike
most of the Tartan, C&C, J-Boat and even a Bristol 35.5 we looked at.
In some cases quality in boats appears to be based more on reputation
than reality. Most of the Cape Dory's we looked at (we were toying with
the idea of a heavy slow boat for an insane few weeks) were in great
shape. The Cape Dory lives up to it's rep, even better than Island
Packet.

RB
35s5
NY

I agree, fun is good.
Of course, there is some thrill in sailing a big boat although I find
more thrill in sailing a smaller boat. For me the thrill in the big
boat is the cruising aspect and not its sailing ability (although I do
appreciate how well she sails). I hope Rob enjoys his boat but he
mistakes his motivations for those of everybody else.

wrote:

I agree, fun is good.
Of course, there is some thrill in sailing a big boat although I find
more thrill in sailing a smaller boat. For me the thrill in the big
boat is the cruising aspect and not its sailing ability (although I do
appreciate how well she sails). I hope Rob enjoys his boat but he
mistakes his motivations for those of everybody else.



I agree that there can be a thrill in sailing a larger boat. - We spent
a week crusing off Galveston in a chartered 40-foot Valiant, and I was
very impressed with its handling and response.

Jim

I would definitely catagorize the MacrapM as the polar opposite of a
well-found sailboat!

I think it's perfect for you!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
I tend to agree with Rob's opinions in several respects. - Sailing isn't a
"practical" endeavor, after all, and a "practical" boat sort of misses the
point. Although I appreciate the capabilities of heavier boats built for
safety and survivability, I personally enjoy a lighter, more responsive
boat. - To me, they're simply more fun to sail, which is why I go sailing
in the first place. (Obviously, "fun to sail" means different things to
different folks.) One analogy of "practical" vs "fun" is like the
difference between driving a Porshe 911 or a Ferrari (light, lightly built,
responsive cars in which the driver feels the road and has greater control
over the car's response, etc., as compared to something like a Lincoln Town
Car, in which the driver and passengers are comfortable despite varying
road conditions, etc., but which doesn't provide the driving experience of
a sports car. Of course, it's obviously a matter of personal preference,
and the Lincoln would be more practical for extended trips, etc. In the
same vein, I can understand why some sailors prefer heavily built sailboats
from builders with established reputations, adapted for long blue-water
crossings, and also, why others prefer the responsiveness of lighter, more
responsive boats (such as the Mac 26M). But selecting a boat because it's
"better built" or more "practical," or because it will get you more respect
from your fellow sailors, etc. when you actually aren't going to take it on
extended crossings that would utilize its capabilities, etc., doesn't make
sense. As Rob points out, the bottom line is: is it fun to sail?
Jim



Capt. Rob wrote:

For me, there is some thrill to sailing but not
that much.


Well there you have it.
And the toe railes are backed with SS plates as in the 32s5 and 38s5.
The discontinous rod rigging is fed through the deck and anhcored with
massive SS fittings set into glass. Chainplate failure on these boats
is virtually impossible. Her steering system is Whitlock geared R&P,
not a sloppy cable based setup, her fit and finish below was judged as
very fine by two surveys and most aspects of her design work better
than any other cruising boat I've sailed, including my nice C&C 32 and
the 37 I sailed...both very good boats. As I said these frist series
boats are not typical of Beneteau's construction used currently and
were priced very high when sold here. The interiors were shipped from
France, the hulls made in the USA. The boat won design awards and was
even featured in MOMA magazine. It's also a fast and winning race boat
for those who don't want to cruise. If you know an experienced
surveyor, ask him about the 35s5 as I did. The boat has some negatives,
totally missed by the folks here of course, but is far better built
than the current crop of Beneteau's. FYI, I used to "bash" Beneteau and
still think their current boats (though better sailing designs than
Catalina) are a bit cheap, especially below. A new 36.7 is a great
performance boat, but it's interior is pretty awful for fit and finish.

Here's the 36.7 nav station for example...poor seating room and a
rather small table.
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/4/2/0/1/1420148_6.jpg

Here's my 35s5 Nav station. Good room and a large table that slides
back when not in use. There's also about 50% more storage. It's
superior design and looks more nautical...for those of us who like to
have "fun."
http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/images/int01.jpg

And those curved doors close with near air-tight perfection...unlike
most of the Tartan, C&C, J-Boat and even a Bristol 35.5 we looked at.
In some cases quality in boats appears to be based more on reputation
than reality. Most of the Cape Dory's we looked at (we were toying with
the idea of a heavy slow boat for an insane few weeks) were in great
shape. The Cape Dory lives up to it's rep, even better than Island
Packet.

RB
35s5
NY