Learning to sail the USA way.

The governing body of sailing within the
USA, the American Sailing Association,
has designed a number of courses aimed
at differing levels of sailing ability.

It is worth pointing out that these courses
are not only available within the USA.
Because it's fine reputation, recognised
worldwide, many sailing companies across
the globe offer these courses with the
approval of the Association.

Read Full Article
At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3

US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves
"The Governing Body of Sailing".

I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach.
Tit for tat.

Self-awarded titles are meaningless.


"ARG" wrote in

The governing body of sailing within the
USA, the American Sailing Association,
has designed a number of courses aimed
at differing levels of sailing ability.
..

Read Full Article
At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3

We use books from both orgs in our classes. We use the USSailing books in
the beginning classes, then move to the ASA books for the more advanced.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves
"The Governing Body of Sailing".

I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach.
Tit for tat.

Self-awarded titles are meaningless.


"ARG" wrote in

The governing body of sailing within the
USA, the American Sailing Association,
has designed a number of courses aimed
at differing levels of sailing ability.
.

Read Full Article
At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3

Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!

I wrote the RYA and asked what standards
of these two groups they would accept and
guess what, no answer.

Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.g


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
We use books from both orgs in our classes. We use the USSailing books in
the beginning classes, then move to the ASA books for the more advanced.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves
"The Governing Body of Sailing".

I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach.
Tit for tat.

Self-awarded titles are meaningless.


"ARG" wrote in

The governing body of sailing within the
USA, the American Sailing Association,
has designed a number of courses aimed
at differing levels of sailing ability.
.

Read Full Article
At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3

That's right. I know of only one for-profit in the bay area that is
certified by the RYA.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
...
Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!

I wrote the RYA and asked what standards
of these two groups they would accept and
guess what, no answer.

Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.g


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
We use books from both orgs in our classes. We use the USSailing books in
the beginning classes, then move to the ASA books for the more advanced.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves
"The Governing Body of Sailing".

I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach.
Tit for tat.

Self-awarded titles are meaningless.


"ARG" wrote in

The governing body of sailing within the
USA, the American Sailing Association,
has designed a number of courses aimed
at differing levels of sailing ability.
.

Read Full Article
At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3

Bart Senior wrote:
Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!

I wrote the RYA and asked what standards
of these two groups they would accept and
guess what, no answer.

Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.g

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.

Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post. It is easy to make
hasty remarks that cannot be retracted.

Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.

My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly
identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs.
ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US
Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too
bad they did not stay with their expertise.

So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!

If you knew anything about sail training you would know
that the "people" who take such courses span all age
groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle
aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people
to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old.
Empty-nester are the most common students.

Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school
students are identical to the clients of sailing schools
following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point
of your bizarre statement?

You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts.
Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason
for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have
become fine sailors through their love of the sport.
I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in
some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you
has dropped yet another notch.

US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US
Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone
that the ASA standard is lower.

In the mid 1990's, a few sailing schools petitioned US
Sailing to add training to it's charter. US Sailing was
reluctant to accept this role. They left its organization up
to these same sailing school owners. This is part of the
reason this program has faults today.The owners of these
sailing schools dominate the training program--which means
a few profit motivated people--sailing school owners, and
their employees/instructors/stooges dominate decision making
in the area of sail training. The imply they hold all the
necessary expertise and no one else has anything to offer.
These people slapped something together and naturally they
think it is better that the ASA program--that does not make it
so.

Since you are knocking ASA you must belong to US Sailing
and believe all their party propaganda. Of course they want
you to believe US Sailing's sail training is better. Give them
ten more years and it might become true.

Right now, I can tell you for a fact that US Sailing has serious
weakness in it's keelboat training program. Specifically, ASA
is far superior in the area of instructor training.

I can give an unbiased viewpoint because I have taken part in
both training programs. I've also taught at five different sailing
schools over a period of 25 years.

I don't like ASA. I don't like US Sailing either. Neither group
treats their instructors well.

For the best introduction to boating and sailing I'd rate the US
Power Squadron courses as the best available. Their navigation
classes in particular are outstanding and the best in the nation.

However, ASA and US Sailing focus on practical training on
the water in keelboats--not power boats. So let us compare
them.

The courses offered? Both ASA and US Sailing have identical
course names, identical material, and they are viewed as
identical by charter companies. Charter companies only care
if you can anchor, motor, and dock, and that you have money
and the boat back in one piece. They don't care about
certifications. Both ASA and US Sailing have done a good
job convincing people that these are good things to have.
The reality is skills count--not the certification.

Both ASA and US Sailing took their course outlines from the
same source, the RYA. Of course the RYA thinks they are the
best--at least the RYA can justify this by virtue of doing this
sort of training longer than anyone else. I will concede the
RYA program is probably the best with the caveat that if the
courses are identical then the programs should be equated.

US Sailing cannot use RYA logic to claim it is the best in
the US because it hasn't been around as long as the ASA.
US Sailing is the newcomer in the US and this is why they
perform poorly in the area of instructor training. So what
can US Sailing do but repeatedly state that their standard
is better since they have no evidence to support this. If
they did, they would use it.

US Sailing Instructor Trainer's lack consistency. There
is fact no standard for their Instructor Trainers (ITs). For
years I've pushed US Sailing to develop a standard for their
IT's because I felt one of their IT's was grossly unqualified
and other has such divergent viewpoints that students were
left confused and disgusted.

I'm told a standard for US Sailing ITs is now under
development. I remain doubtful

One argument I've heard is the ASA never flunks an
instructor candidate. Perhaps this is true. My experience
was the instructor candidates were generally well qualified
and the ASA instructor trainers actually provided valuable
training during the course. I have seen US Sailing IT's
flunk candidates. In one case it was justified. I fault US
Sailing for accepting a candidate without the necessary
qualifications. In the other case the candidate should not
have been flunked. He was failed in a case in which the
root cause of the problem was the design of the boat he
was being evaluated on. Specifically, the Colgate 26 has
a tendency to stall the keel in certain situations. I fault the
instructor trainer in this case for not understanding the
characteristics of the boat being used for the evaluation.

While US Sailing is technically a Non-Profit, why then is it
they are trying to drive the ASA, out of business? Clearly US
Sailing sees itself as a For-Profit business if this is the case.

They make no effort to integrate their program with the ASA
program. They will not grant equivalency to ASA instructor
credentials because this undermines their own programs. This
self-serving attitude is to the detriment of sailing instructors
and favors sailing schools using the US Sailing certification
standard.

Perhaps someday the ASA will sue US Sailing. I would be
glad to testify that US Sailing Instructor Trainers make
this sort of statement often, without direct knowledge
or experience of the ASA instructor training program. I think
it would be an easy battle for the ASA to win in court.

From a students perspective, there is no difference between
ASA and US Sailing's Keelboat training programs.

Since US Sailing is driving away members, it claim to being
"the governing body of the sport", is laughable propaganda.

When asked, I will continue to tell my sailing students not to
join US Sailing unless they absolutely have to in order to
race; that they don't have to join if they are crew; and that
they don't have to enter a race officially, to participate.

I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with
some credible arguments next time.

"Jean Pudl" wrote
Bart Senior wrote:
Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!

Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.

Bart Senior wrote:
Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post.

There's little hope I can match your 100% record!

It is easy to make
hasty remarks that cannot be retracted.

Did I say something incorrect?


Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.

No connection at all, other than having been a member for several
periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on
numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. I've also
sailed a number of times at ASA affiliates and my wife has taken one
of their courses, as have a number of friends. I have no complaints
with either.



My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly
identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs.

Keelboat training is a tiny part of USSailing's operation. Perhaps
you should have qualified your comments.


ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US
Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too
bad they did not stay with their expertise.

Why? Are you claiming they should stay out of keel-boat training
because another group sees them as competition? You've even said that
for the students it doesn't matter much. It would seem that
ultimately its the quality of the school that counts, not their
affiliation.


So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!

That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


If you knew anything about sail training you would know
that the "people" who take such courses span all age
groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle
aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people
to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old.
Empty-nester are the most common students.

OK. Yuppies that grew up. Anyway you look it, this is an aspect of
the sport for those on the affluent side of the curve. The single
mother with three kids and two jobs is not likely to need a bare boat
chartering certificate. She may however, be interested in sending her
kids to a community sailing program, or a YMCA camp.

I've also taught hundreds of students. The difference is that I did
it at non-profit organizations and no one ever paid more then a few
hundred dollars for a summer of sailing. Most fees were under $50.

I'm not claiming that for-profit training is bad, but I never saw much
help from ASA in the non-profit world. And from my point of view,
claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous.


Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school
students are identical to the clients of sailing schools
following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point
of your bizarre statement?

That may be true in the area that ASA focuses on. But isn't that a
tautology? Where they cater to the same customers they have the same
demographics? What is bizarre is your claim that because they overlap
in this area they are "identical."


You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts.

I only implied something about you. And you're certainly living up to
that implication now!


Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason
for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have
become fine sailors through their love of the sport.

and your point is ... ? You have fine students so you're allowed to
be a dolt? OK, if you insist.

I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in
some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you
has dropped yet another notch.

Oh. I point out that you said something blatantly wrong and therefore
I'm a bad sailer. You must be a Republican.



US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US
Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone
that the ASA standard is lower.

Oh, now we see. You have a big chip there. To be honest, I don't
know much about the merits of either side of this feud. I don't care
much, and I doubt anyone not in the business cares much.

The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. They are the folks that
run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, trains the race
committees, etc. Although this is primarily oriented towards racing,
its a historical fact that until about 25 years ago most recreational
sailing training was run by yacht clubs and other non-profits that
were the same groups that ran racing. Its no surprise that their
national group would get involved in training. Further, while ASA is
focused on keelboat training, these non-profits often deal with small
boat training, especially for kids.

If you have any doubt, here's their respective affiliates for your
home state:
https://www.american-sailing.com/lea...nnecticut.html
http://www.ussailing.org/csa/memberOrgs.asp?state=CT


So let me repeat. You made three factual errors in your short post;
the truth is:

USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. The
comment by ARG that started this thread (that ASA was the governing
body) was incorrect, the article he referenced never claimed it, and
the ASA site never claims it.

USSailing IS a non-profit. The fact that some for-profit companies
use their materials is irrelevant.

USSailing and ASA are not "identical," they are very different
organizations. They just happen to overlap in one area. You seem
obsessed with this point, defining USSailing by one small piece of the
work.

I never once mentioned that USSailing is better or worse than ASA, I
only said your claims were factually wrong. The bizarre thing is that
you've even admitted that you were wrong in two of these points, but
you've tried to hide that by claiming that I have some sort of evil
agenda.

snip interesting but off topic discussion of the history and relative
merits to the two training programs


I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with
some credible arguments next time.


I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!

JP





"Jean Pudl" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!


Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.

Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:06:05 -0500, Jean Pudl wrote:

Bart Senior wrote:
Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post.

There's little hope I can match your 100% record!

It is easy to make
hasty remarks that cannot be retracted.

Did I say something incorrect?


Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.

No connection at all, other than having been a member for several
periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on
numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. I've also
sailed a number of times at ASA affiliates and my wife has taken one
of their courses, as have a number of friends. I have no complaints
with either.



My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly
identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs.

Keelboat training is a tiny part of USSailing's operation. Perhaps
you should have qualified your comments.


ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US
Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too
bad they did not stay with their expertise.

Why? Are you claiming they should stay out of keel-boat training
because another group sees them as competition? You've even said that
for the students it doesn't matter much. It would seem that
ultimately its the quality of the school that counts, not their
affiliation.


So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!

That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


If you knew anything about sail training you would know
that the "people" who take such courses span all age
groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle
aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people
to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old.
Empty-nester are the most common students.

OK. Yuppies that grew up. Anyway you look it, this is an aspect of
the sport for those on the affluent side of the curve. The single
mother with three kids and two jobs is not likely to need a bare boat
chartering certificate. She may however, be interested in sending her
kids to a community sailing program, or a YMCA camp.

I've also taught hundreds of students. The difference is that I did
it at non-profit organizations and no one ever paid more then a few
hundred dollars for a summer of sailing. Most fees were under $50.

I'm not claiming that for-profit training is bad, but I never saw much
help from ASA in the non-profit world. And from my point of view,
claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous.


Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school
students are identical to the clients of sailing schools
following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point
of your bizarre statement?

That may be true in the area that ASA focuses on. But isn't that a
tautology? Where they cater to the same customers they have the same
demographics? What is bizarre is your claim that because they overlap
in this area they are "identical."


You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts.

I only implied something about you. And you're certainly living up to
that implication now!


Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason
for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have
become fine sailors through their love of the sport.

and your point is ... ? You have fine students so you're allowed to
be a dolt? OK, if you insist.

I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in
some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you
has dropped yet another notch.

Oh. I point out that you said something blatantly wrong and therefore
I'm a bad sailer. You must be a Republican.



US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US
Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone
that the ASA standard is lower.

Oh, now we see. You have a big chip there. To be honest, I don't
know much about the merits of either side of this feud. I don't care
much, and I doubt anyone not in the business cares much.

The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. They are the folks that
run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, trains the race
committees, etc. Although this is primarily oriented towards racing,
its a historical fact that until about 25 years ago most recreational
sailing training was run by yacht clubs and other non-profits that
were the same groups that ran racing. Its no surprise that their
national group would get involved in training. Further, while ASA is
focused on keelboat training, these non-profits often deal with small
boat training, especially for kids.

If you have any doubt, here's their respective affiliates for your
home state:
https://www.american-sailing.com/lea...nnecticut.html
http://www.ussailing.org/csa/memberOrgs.asp?state=CT


So let me repeat. You made three factual errors in your short post;
the truth is:

USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. The
comment by ARG that started this thread (that ASA was the governing
body) was incorrect, the article he referenced never claimed it, and
the ASA site never claims it.

USSailing IS a non-profit. The fact that some for-profit companies
use their materials is irrelevant.

USSailing and ASA are not "identical," they are very different
organizations. They just happen to overlap in one area. You seem
obsessed with this point, defining USSailing by one small piece of the
work.

I never once mentioned that USSailing is better or worse than ASA, I
only said your claims were factually wrong. The bizarre thing is that
you've even admitted that you were wrong in two of these points, but
you've tried to hide that by claiming that I have some sort of evil
agenda.

snip interesting but off topic discussion of the history and relative
merits to the two training programs


I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with
some credible arguments next time.


I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!

JP





"Jean Pudl" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!


Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.




Bravo! Well done.



Quite a smackdown!

Amen!