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The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
Capt. Rob wrote: Jeff, you not only sound like an idiot...you are one. Can you explain the advantage of not having AC on board??? Is it too heavy??? Too complicated for you? Too expensive??? To nice to be comfortable on really hot days when fixing that head of yours? You're courting a heat stroke, dude. Let me explain for you bubbles. Your boat is to small. You need all the space you have. AC's take lots of maintainance, need major power, and are heavy. My friends now sailing down the coast of S. America tossed both AC's off the P 40 before taking off. They needed the space, did not want the hassles, and they knew they would be on the hook never pluging in. They put lots of fans aboard that are 12 volt, have a wind scoop and needed to loose weight ...which having no AC's helps to accomplish. If you had proper tropical canvas to shade your boat that would help you on hot days. What they did for comfort was install a solar panel and wind gen to run the fans inside 24/7 if needed. Thats what I suggest you do. Now we have not had a day that the "feels like temp" has not been under 107 for a month or two now. We have shade canvas and lot's of AC's but we have the room and the power to run them. Joe RB 35s5 NY |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
Let me explain for you bubbles. Your boat is to small. You need all the space you have. For what? Short range cruises and overnighters? Most of our storage is empty. The area where the AC is is also empty. Our lazerette is mostly empty. Aft lockers empty. Forward storage not in use. Scotty's skull also empty. Care to explain why we don't have room on a 35s5 that's not cruising long range? AC's take lots of maintainance, need major power, and are heavy. My friends now sailing down the coast of S. America tossed both AC's off the P 40 before taking off. ??? My entire 17'000 BTU system weight is 75 lbs and is mounted under the sink! If it needs service I'll get it serviced by my yard like anything else. So??? It's harldy complicated, though I don't doubt your system may be. I understand your POV, and even Jeff's, but we're sailing locally, hanging out at the dock for BBQ with friends and daysailing. The setup is really nice so far. You can't argue with cool...and in Scotty's case you can't argue with a fool! RB 35s5 NY |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
Capt. Rob wrote:
Powerboat thinking is putting in an aft cabin with poor ventilation and then claiming its a feature because it requires you to add a genset to run the A/C at night on a mooring. Well, then every sailboat I've ever been on needs air conditioning. I've never gone into a sailboat cabin on a 90+ degree day and found it "cool." Sorry, you either like the heat or are full of crap. Then you haven't been on many sailboats. And we know that you've only spent a few nights on the hook on a few boats. We are talking about night temps on a mooring, not daytime. After all, the point of going out on a boat is to be outdoors, not huddled down below with the genset and A/C running! I anchor in places where we can go for a swim, or kayak if it gets too hot in the cockpit. Why would you go somewhere where you have to stay down below? And really, even in the midday heat, my forward cabins are cooler than the cockpit. And before you bring up your kid as an excuse, remember that we cruised with our daughter from the time she was 10 months old. For dockside relief we moved to a marina with a small swimming pool, but we never had an overheating issue underway or on a mooring. Which brings up a question, why don't you have a dodger to protect your kid from the Sun? Is it because the cockpit is too small? At my marina most of the powerboats over 25 feet have A/C, but I don't think any of the sailboats do (certainly none run on daily basis). Maybe people your way have no money! About half the sailboats here have A/C and everyone who doesn't have it wishes they did. I guess you never do anything below on really hot days! That may be because you have a lot of marina queens. The question is, how many of them run the genset all night when they anchor? Or maybe you're suggesting your cabin is a healthy 75 degrees on a 95 degree day??? As I've said, in the midday sun the cabin and cockpit can heat up. My boat, however, has six large, forward facing hatches, plus four large side hatches (too big to be called "portholes") plus two more large aft facing hatches, and four small portholes. Plus the bows tend to funnel up the surface air over the deck. The result is, if the wind is 5 knots or more, the cabin temp is pretty close to surface water temp. The bunks are definitely chilled down, but the main cabin stays a few degrees warmer. To help this, we've added tight mesh (Phifertex) over the large plexi windows, and "surface skyscreens" on the hatches. This makes a huge difference in how much the cabin heats up. http://uk.oceanair.co.uk/da/10495 Jeff, you not only sound like an idiot...you are one. No Bob, you're the idiot claiming that it would be horrific to anchor out without A/C. Only a powerboater with no ventilation would make that claim. Can you explain the advantage of not having AC on board??? Is it too heavy??? A bit, but I don't worry too much about that. However, A/C plus a genset does start to add up on a catamaran. Too complicated for you? I'm a licensed A/C technician. Gauge set, tanks of refrigerant, tools, etc. Its the family business. Too expensive??? Actually, yes. As a retiree on a fixed income I've started looking at money differently. The cost, perhaps $5K or more to do my boat properly, means $300 a year, for the rest of my life! Add the $420 my marina charges for the electricity, and this becomes a substantial hit given that we spend very limited time at the dock. If we lived on the boat I might look at this differently! But we're really talking about running it at a mooring so we have to add maybe $5K to $10K for a genset plus some annual expense. This is way too much money and hassle for something that isn't needed, and isn't desirable. To nice to be comfortable on really hot days when fixing that head of yours? You're courting a heat stroke, dude. To be honest, on days like that (perhaps 1 or 2 a year) I only do about an hour's work before taking a long break. Would I pay several hundred dollars so I could work longer? Very doubtful indeed! The discussion is not about A/C at the dock for marina queens, its about on a mooring, where cruisers like me spend most of our time. When there's boat work to be done during vacation, I'm the one who stays cool on the boat, while women-folk are sweltering ashore. (Actually hopping from one air conditioned shop to another!) You're claiming you need to add a genset to be comfortable on your boat. Obviously, your boat has terrible ventilation because almost every boat I've cruised on is quite comfortable if the water is 75 degrees. And, you might check out the water temps in other places. It pretty warm now down in FL, but in Winter in the Keys its around 68 degrees. Why don't you ask Neal if he needs A/C on his boat? |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:32:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:
Capt. Rob wrote: If that isn't powerboat thinking, I don't know what is! Powerboat thinking is not about air conditiioning, Jeff. It's about powerboating. It's about selling your sailboat and buying a powerboat. Powerboat thinking is putting in an aft cabin with poor ventilation and then claiming its a feature because it requires you to add a genset to run the A/C at night on a mooring. At my marina most of the powerboats over 25 feet have A/C, but I don't think any of the sailboats do (certainly none run on daily basis). You may daysail, but you have a powerboat mentality. Last charter I took ( Abaco, the Bahamas) the nightly argument was whether to run the Genset and AC or not. I always argued against it. Didn't always win. Determining if I can charter with those folks again. Nothing more irritating than pulling into a quiet cove setting up and having some idiot come in later, and crank up a noisy genset so they can run all their toys, including AC. Wonder why they didn't just stay home. Where I used to keep my boat, the marina charged a healthy surcharge if you had and ran AC using their shore power. I sail in an area that is much hotter than LIS. Never had an uncomfortable night offshore without AC. Set the windscoops, opened up the boat and sleeping great. Never found the boat to uncomfortable to work on with opening ports, hatches, windscoops, fans, etc. Of course, I'm fairly well work hardened and not a marshmellow. I haven't kept a boat there for about 8 years now, but when I did, very few of the sailboats had gensets or AC. Maybe times have changed. Well of course it has, that place ain't there no more. Frank |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
Last charter I took in Belize, we had AC aboard... never turned it on, never
even thought about turning it on. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Frank Boettcher" wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:32:20 -0400, Jeff wrote: Capt. Rob wrote: If that isn't powerboat thinking, I don't know what is! Powerboat thinking is not about air conditiioning, Jeff. It's about powerboating. It's about selling your sailboat and buying a powerboat. Powerboat thinking is putting in an aft cabin with poor ventilation and then claiming its a feature because it requires you to add a genset to run the A/C at night on a mooring. At my marina most of the powerboats over 25 feet have A/C, but I don't think any of the sailboats do (certainly none run on daily basis). You may daysail, but you have a powerboat mentality. Last charter I took ( Abaco, the Bahamas) the nightly argument was whether to run the Genset and AC or not. I always argued against it. Didn't always win. Determining if I can charter with those folks again. Nothing more irritating than pulling into a quiet cove setting up and having some idiot come in later, and crank up a noisy genset so they can run all their toys, including AC. Wonder why they didn't just stay home. Where I used to keep my boat, the marina charged a healthy surcharge if you had and ran AC using their shore power. I sail in an area that is much hotter than LIS. Never had an uncomfortable night offshore without AC. Set the windscoops, opened up the boat and sleeping great. Never found the boat to uncomfortable to work on with opening ports, hatches, windscoops, fans, etc. Of course, I'm fairly well work hardened and not a marshmellow. I haven't kept a boat there for about 8 years now, but when I did, very few of the sailboats had gensets or AC. Maybe times have changed. Well of course it has, that place ain't there no more. Frank |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
Well, then every sailboat I've ever been on needs air conditioning. I've never gone into a sailboat cabin on a 90+ degree day and found it "cool." Sorry, you either like the heat or are full of crap. Then you haven't been on many sailboats. Yeah only the "hot" ones! And we know that you've only spent a few nights on the hook on a few boats. Physics are physics. In the last half of the summer here we get great nights and awful nights where AC is a nice thing to have. No boat is going to be 70 degrees below when it's 90 topside. We are talking about night temps on a mooring, not daytime. Actually, daytime is where the AC really is nice. I agree that most nights are fine without it. But since we got it with the boat should we NOT use it when it's hot and we're dockside? After all, the point of going out on a boat is to be outdoors, not huddled down below with the genset and A/C running! That's what camping is for. I go sailing because I like sailing. Afterwards there's nothing fun about being uncomfortable on a boat due to heat. Why would you go somewhere where you have to stay down below? Well....I'll let you know soon. Thus far the AC's primary use has been a nice cool place to eat or nap (for Thomas) after a afternoon sail. Should we NOT run the AC if we're too hot? And really, even in the midday heat, my forward cabins are cooler than the cockpit. Water temps will often make it cooler below. But last week it was 100+ for several days. The only boats that were cool had AC. We went sailing late on one of those days and were surprised to find some cool air. Back at the slip it was in the low 90's and sweltering when we returned. Were we wrong to turn on the AC then? And before you bring up your kid as an excuse, remember that we cruised with our daughter from the time she was 10 months old. No excuse. We're careful about temps with kids because most folks aren't. Do you know that Thomas has never had a cough or even the sniffles? why don't you have a dodger to protect your kid from the Sun? Is it because the cockpit is too small? We have a dodger and bimini. They are practically new and in storage in the yard's loft. Thomas..which you can clearly see in the pics, is not burned at all. He's well protected from the sun. I'll probably set the dodger up next season though. t may be because you have a lot of marina queens. The question is, how many of them run the genset all night when they anchor? Honestly, Jeff....probably very few. But it's a nice option. I've said, in the midday sun the cabin and cockpit can heat up. Nuff said....just like any boat. help this, we've added tight mesh (Phifertex) over the large plexi windows, and "surface skyscreens" on the hatches. This makes a huge difference in how much the cabin heats up. http://uk.oceanair.co.uk/da/10495 Good tip. Bob, you're the idiot claiming that it would be horrific to anchor out without A/C. Never claimed that at all. I said SOME nights are horrific and you agreed saying you saw a few days where it was oppressive. We're on the same page there. The only difference is that we enjoy our AC and didn't pay for it and we don't pay for electric either. A bit, but I don't worry too much about that. However, A/C plus a genset does start to add up on a catamaran. Agreed...and on my boat as well. I'm still tempted if I can get one cheap or for free though. I'm a licensed A/C technician. Gauge set, tanks of refrigerant, tools, etc. Its the family business. So why not set up an AC for kicks? You could probably do a great job. It will add to the value of the boat beyond it's cost if you don't pay for the install. At ANY age it's better for you at dock, especially when doing a boat project. Actually, yes. As a retiree on a fixed income I've started looking at money differently. The cost, perhaps $5K or more to do my boat properly, means $300 a year, for the rest of my life! Add the $420 my marina charges for the electricity, and this becomes a substantial hit given that we spend very limited time at the dock. If we lived on the boat I might look at this differently! Jeff, I appreciate your honesty on this point and I retract calling you an idiot. The above point is quite valid. If you find your boat pleasant enough, don't buy it. But remember, our boat had it installed by the previous owner. He was older than you and liked spending time aboard and found the AC worthwhile. To nice to be comfortable on really hot days when fixing that head of yours? You're courting a heat stroke, dude. The discussion is not about A/C at the dock for marina queens, its about on a mooring, where cruisers like me spend most of our time. On a mooring I MOSTLY agree with your points...but again, I won't turn down a free genset. I like the boat toys and I see nothing wrong with that, even if you want to call it a "powerboater mentality." My friend with the Tayana 48 just installed a crazy Sat. TV system. He rarely uses it, but he gets a kick out of the "toys" and it's his money. You're claiming you need to add a genset to be comfortable on your boat. I've made no such claim. I simply said I was exploring the idea. We've barely slept aboard this boat. We're still getting used to her, using her as a big daysailor. We'll be doing some short cruises in the coming weeks and then we'll judge. With temps starting to drop we may pass on the whole genset idea. But a free one won't be turned away. Obviously, your boat has terrible ventilation because almost every boat I've cruised on is quite comfortable if the water is 75 degrees. This is entirely subjective, Jeff. I have friends who are like you and others who prefer it cooler. I've sailed a LOT of boats on a LOT of hot days. I really have noted very little difference regarding temperature between them...unless the boats were darker colors. I've never gone inside a boat on a 95 degree day and found it pleasant...and I've been in a lot of boats, Jeff. The air blowing threw the hatch was still 95 degrees....like a blow dryer to me. Why don't you ask Neal if he needs A/C on his boat? Now you're just being silly, Jeff. It's beautiful here and almost chilly today. We're about to go for a sail so I'm not in the mood for any more trolling. Cheers, Jeff. RB 35s5 NY |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
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The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
Sounded like a lot of fun until you get to the 6 other people on board.
What the heck were they doing all this time? Are you that much of a tiller-hog?? Capt.Mooron wrote: Playing cards for a while.... yeh, some of my best light air races were spent playing cards down below. .... It was really bad weather and we had a long haul to make it to a secure harbour. I wouldn't trust anyone at the helm in those conditions. One screw up might have placed us in dire circumstances. So? You could have screwed up yourself, especially from fatigue after many hours unrelieved. IMHO times like these are the best to teach helmsmanship... if the student is willing. I've also had marginally-willing students suddenly try to give me back the helm the instant before a big wave (or some other form of disaster) was about to hit. Hate it when that happens. ..... I only know a handful of sailors I would trust to helm the boat in bad conditions while off watch.... none of them were aboard at the time. C'mon, 'Overproof' can't be that friggin' squirrelly and hard-mouthed. Sounds like you're working to justify being a tiller hog! Sounds like mal-de-mer might have been a problem? Nope..... a few shots of overproof rum cures mal de mer in a hurry. Alcohol has the opposite effect on many, but it's also true that whiskey (or other strong spirits) is whole medicine cabinet in a single bottle! DSK |
The Best Cockpit, not a 35.5 MG midget
DSK wrote: I've also had marginally-willing students suddenly try to give me back the helm the instant before a big wave (or some other form of disaster) was about to hit. Hate it when that happens. No doubt..while training a Captain she insisted on taking a 225 ft barge thru the Pelican Island Bridge near Galveston, has interesting side currents and can get tricky...I agreed and waited just a bit to long to take control, just as she jumpped back from the wheel screaming take it. I tried like hell to get it up in time, but did a glancing blow off the brand new fenders they just drove in. Sorry MF's claimed I broke 3 of the pylons.... cost the company about 5 grand to fix...and guess who had to accept the blame...... ..... I only know a handful of sailors I would trust to helm the boat in bad conditions while off watch.... none of them were aboard at the time. C'mon, 'Overproof' can't be that friggin' squirrelly and hard-mouthed. Sounds like you're working to justify being a tiller hog! I don't know if it's the squirrelly part ..or not trusting your life and the life of your passengers into the hands of a amature. I've had a 100 times I've been at the wheel for over 24 hrs straight in foul or extreme conditions. Adreline and coffee can do wonderious things. But I can relate to how good the hard bunk feels when you get to crash. Joe DSK |
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