I've also had marginally-willing students suddenly try to
give me back the helm the instant before a big wave (or some
other form of disaster) was about to hit. Hate it when that
happens.



Joe wrote:
No doubt..while training a Captain she insisted on taking a 225 ft
barge thru the Pelican Island Bridge near Galveston, has interesting
side currents and can get tricky...I agreed and waited just a bit to
long to take control, just as she jumpped back from the wheel screaming
take it. I tried like hell to get it up in time, but did a glancing
blow off the brand new fenders they just drove in. Sorry MF's claimed I
broke 3 of the pylons.... cost the company about 5 grand to fix...and
guess who had to accept the blame......


Well, you were the captain. Of course you were trying to be
a gentleman and give also give her a chance, but you should
have shoved her away from the helm and taken it yourself
when it looked like she was not getting in the right line on
approach. Or told her clearly that if she wanted to keep the
helm, she could take the blame.

I work hard at being a kind & patient instructor, but my
earliest experiences were with sailors who believed a good
rap upside the head, and having the helm yanked rudely out
of the hands (with a comment somehing like 'a retarded
spastic monkey with two broken arms could steer better than
you'), would provide the best motivation... in moments of
stress I tend to revert....


..... I only know a handful of sailors I would
trust to helm the boat in bad conditions while off watch.... none of them
were aboard at the time.


C'mon, 'Overproof' can't be that friggin' squirrelly and
hard-mouthed. Sounds like you're working to justify being a
tiller hog!


I don't know if it's the squirrelly part ..or not trusting your life
and the life of your passengers into the hands of a amature. I've had a
100 times I've been at the wheel for over 24 hrs straight in foul or
extreme conditions. Adreline and coffee can do wonderious things. But I
can relate to how good the hard bunk feels when you get to crash.


If the vessel is truly in such grave danger, then a relief
helmsman should have already been trained. Adrenalin and
caffiene can work wonders but fatigue is still dangerous.

That said, I've stood some pretty darn long watches
myself... one reason why I like to get other people trained
properly.

Nice thing about a tiller is that there are several ways of
letting a trainee put 'hands on' the helm to get a feel for
the vessel and the helm responses without actually giving
them control of the helm. Quite a few times in poor
conditions, such as quartering seas, I go through a bit of
teaching. Once the person seems to have the feel for it,
instead of giving them total control, I will rest my pointer
finger on the back of their hand on the helm. That way I can
push the way the helm should move, and they learn how much &
how fast to anticipate with the helm. Once I don't have to
push, we both have confidence in their steering.

Of course there are few people I have tempted to whap upside
the head, too... and a few people who just plain never get
it. But that souldn't be a surprise, driving a car is much
easier and look how many people think they can drive.

DSK

DSK wrote:
I've also had marginally-willing students suddenly try to
give me back the helm the instant before a big wave (or some
other form of disaster) was about to hit. Hate it when that
happens.



Joe wrote:
No doubt..while training a Captain she insisted on taking a 225 ft
barge thru the Pelican Island Bridge near Galveston, has interesting
side currents and can get tricky...I agreed and waited just a bit to
long to take control, just as she jumpped back from the wheel screaming
take it. I tried like hell to get it up in time, but did a glancing
blow off the brand new fenders they just drove in. Sorry MF's claimed I
broke 3 of the pylons.... cost the company about 5 grand to fix...and
guess who had to accept the blame......


Well, you were the captain. Of course you were trying to be
a gentleman and give also give her a chance, but you should
have shoved her away from the helm and taken it yourself
when it looked like she was not getting in the right line on
approach. Or told her clearly that if she wanted to keep the
helm, she could take the blame.

As Capt, you can not shift the blame, even if she agreed. There was
some bull**** involved IMO. Here is a picture of the Bridge:

http://www.uscg.mil/vtshouston/image...ftbridge02.jpg

See the wood fender system? They were in the progress of putting all
new pilons in ..and I think they just used me as a scape goat and
blamed some all ready broke pilons on me. I told the company that, but
they said it was easier to send them a 5K check then to deal with it in
any other way. They also ordered me to go around the island on all
future trips heading west on the ICW. This would add about 2-3 hr to a
round trip. I promptly ignored that order and just made sure the bridge
was never bumped again.


I work hard at being a kind & patient instructor, but my
earliest experiences were with sailors who believed a good
rap upside the head, and having the helm yanked rudely out
of the hands (with a comment somehing like 'a retarded
spastic monkey with two broken arms could steer better than
you'), would provide the best motivation... in moments of
stress I tend to revert....

That works if you are not married to the other Skipper. The only
time I ever struck a crew member on the helm I caught him sleeping. I
fired him on the spot.

..... I only know a handful of sailors I would
trust to helm the boat in bad conditions while off watch.... none of them
were aboard at the time.


C'mon, 'Overproof' can't be that friggin' squirrelly and
hard-mouthed. Sounds like you're working to justify being a
tiller hog!


I don't know if it's the squirrelly part ..or not trusting your life
and the life of your passengers into the hands of a amature. I've had a
100 times I've been at the wheel for over 24 hrs straight in foul or
extreme conditions. Adreline and coffee can do wonderious things. But I
can relate to how good the hard bunk feels when you get to crash.


If the vessel is truly in such grave danger, then a relief
helmsman should have already been trained.

Bull****.


Adrenalin and
caffiene can work wonders but fatigue is still dangerous.

That said, I've stood some pretty darn long watches
myself... one reason why I like to get other people trained
properly.

properly trained to handle a rogue wave, compound set, giant troff,
rolling wave,
ect..ect..ect..ect..ect...et........ect........... .....ect..................


Nice thing about a tiller is that there are several ways of
letting a trainee put 'hands on' the helm to get a feel for
the vessel and the helm responses without actually giving
them control of the helm. Quite a few times in poor
conditions, such as quartering seas, I go through a bit of
teaching. Once the person seems to have the feel for it,
instead of giving them total control, I will rest my pointer
finger on the back of their hand on the helm. That way I can
push the way the helm should move, and they learn how much &
how fast to anticipate with the helm. Once I don't have to
push, we both have confidence in their steering.

Of course there are few people I have tempted to whap upside
the head, too... and a few people who just plain never get
it. But that souldn't be a surprise, driving a car is much
easier and look how many people think they can drive.

In storm conditions I worry about broaching, capsizing, pitch-poling,
having windows blown in, gear torn off the vessel, injury to
passengers, equipment failures.. ect....things I refuse to allow others
to deal with.

Joe



DSK

... in moments of
stress I tend to revert....


Joe wrote:
That works if you are not married to the other Skipper.

Well, that does complicate the issue.

.... The only
time I ever struck a crew member on the helm I caught him sleeping. I
fired him on the spot.


After beating his ass, I hope.
I have caught people sleeping on watch, unfortunately it has
not been in my power to fire them on the spot. I did take
steps to make sure it never happened again though. For
example, being awakend by a kick in the nuts is a pretty
good guarantee....




If the vessel is truly in such grave danger, then a relief
helmsman should have already been trained.


Bull****.


You think training others is bull****?




Joe wrote:
In storm conditions I worry about broaching, capsizing, pitch-poling,
having windows blown in, gear torn off the vessel, injury to
passengers, equipment failures.. ect....things I refuse to allow others
to deal with.


Maybe one day, you'll look down and realize that there is no
'S' painted on your chest. What you can deal with, others
can either deal with already (unless you believe that you
are the best sailor in the world) and still more can be
taught to deal with.

A captain who drives himself into fatigue when his vessel is
in danger, after having ignored & denied others the chance
to become skilled in handing the vessel, is himself a hazard.

DSK

DSK wrote:
... in moments of
stress I tend to revert....


Joe wrote:
That works if you are not married to the other Skipper.

Well, that does complicate the issue.

.... The only
time I ever struck a crew member on the helm I caught him sleeping. I
fired him on the spot.


After beating his ass, I hope.

No , I just made him wake up to a head full of stars....He was a new
mate, I was in the wheelhouse sleeping on the bench, and got up knowing
we should be getting close to the jetties and asked how things were
going, he did not answer and kept snoozing so I slaped him hard across
the back of the head(i regret it). I should have just had him go below
and pack his bags.

I have caught people sleeping on watch, unfortunately it has
not been in my power to fire them on the spot. I did take
steps to make sure it never happened again though. For
example, being awakend by a kick in the nuts is a pretty
good guarantee....




If the vessel is truly in such grave danger, then a relief
helmsman should have already been trained.


Bull****.


You think training others is bull****?

No, training is the number two responsibility.. after the ship and
crew/ passengers..

You do not train in " grave danger" situation by letting a sub take
charge. They can learn more by watching. The risk is to high IMO in
"grave danger" situations.


Joe wrote:
In storm conditions I worry about broaching, capsizing, pitch-poling,
having windows blown in, gear torn off the vessel, injury to
passengers, equipment failures.. ect....things I refuse to allow others
to deal with.


Maybe one day, you'll look down and realize that there is no
'S' painted on your chest. What you can deal with, others
can either deal with already (unless you believe that you
are the best sailor in the world) and still more can be
taught to deal with.

Sure, but until I feel the student/sub can do a better job I will keep
command in grave situations, and that is never going to happen. As most
sailors know life at sea is long boring times entwined with brief
moments of sheer terror. I've never been in a "grave danger" storm I
could not ride out from one end to the other. Longer than 48 hrs
anyway.


A captain who drives himself into fatigue when his vessel is
in danger, after having ignored & denied others the chance
to become skilled in handing the vessel, is himself a hazard.

Agreed.

A Captain who does not command his vessel in times of danger is a
fool.


Joe

DSK

Joe wrote:
No, training is the number two responsibility.. after the ship and
crew/ passengers..


Hmm, that makes it #3

You do not train in " grave danger" situation by letting a sub take
charge. They can learn more by watching. The risk is to high IMO in
"grave danger" situations.


Agreed... but it is possible... necessary IMHO... to 'bring
up' the crew & exec/mate in everyday situations, to *make*
the opportunities to train them, to observe them in lesser
situations and perhaps even fake an emergency or two...
besides, if the captain has a heart attack (or maybe if God
strikes him with lightning) then the exec/mate is going to
have to handle it the best he can.

Might as well get his skills polished up & get yourself used
to the idea.




A captain who drives himself into fatigue when his vessel is
in danger, after having ignored & denied others the chance
to become skilled in handing the vessel, is himself a hazard.


Agreed.

A Captain who does not command his vessel in times of danger is a
fool.


Agreed.

There are more ways to command one's vessel that to clench
the helm tightly in one's own hand.

DSK

DSK wrote:



There are more ways to command one's vessel that to clench
the helm tightly in one's own hand.


Not always.

Joe


DSK

Doug,

Every Skipper, worth his Salt, in his own mind evaluates conditions,
course, weather, ability of the crew and the DURATION of the voyage. If
he figures he will have to helm the whole voyage, that is the Skipper
decision (IMHO) If he can do it fine. That is HIS DECISION! If he can't
he should get competent help or cancel the trip.

Who I'm I to make a judgement of right or wrong? Decision making isn't
something that can be set down in a memo that can be correct for all
unknown future conditions. IMHO it had better be left to the person
doing the evaluation.

CM's Voyage was a success and therefore a proper decision period.

Let's don't let some desk jockey get involved in something he cannot
possible envision all the variable in the future.

Let's keep; Freedom of the Sea---FREE!




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Thom Stewart wrote:

Doug,

Every Skipper, worth his Salt, in his own mind evaluates conditions,
course, weather, ability of the crew and the DURATION of the voyage.

Sure. And probably have a plan for what his best (fastest)
passage might be, or how long it might take if conditions
are unfavorable.


... If
he figures he will have to helm the whole voyage, that is the Skipper
decision (IMHO) If he can do it fine. That is HIS DECISION! If he can't
he should get competent help or cancel the trip.


Or get an autopilot.
And my point is that one way... the best way IMHO... to get
competent help is to *teach* somebody to be competent.



Who I'm I to make a judgement of right or wrong? Decision making isn't
something that can be set down in a memo that can be correct for all
unknown future conditions. IMHO it had better be left to the person
doing the evaluation.


Agreed.

CM's Voyage was a success and therefore a proper decision period.


Agreed
Although (again IMHO) he let slip an excellent opportunity
to teach another sailor.


Let's don't let some desk jockey get involved in something he cannot
possible envision all the variable in the future.

Let's keep; Freedom of the Sea---FREE!


Agreed. The land is getting less & less free, so we gotta do
something!

DSK

Thom Stewart wrote:


Let's don't let some desk jockey get involved in something he cannot
possible envision all the variable in the future.

Sorry Ol Thom It's all ready happened for the professional Capt. If you
are running more than 12 hr per day.... 2 licenced capt's are required,
or a licenced first mate above 100 tons.



Let's keep; Freedom of the Sea---FREE!

Indeed..to each his own, a master of his ship, plotting his own
Destiny.

Joe




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Joe,
Sorry so is right Joe, That great Reg. sure didn't help the Valdez Oil
Spill------

Sorry Ol Thom It's all ready happened for the professional Capt. If you
are running more than 12 hr per day.... 2 licenced capt's are required,
or a licenced first mate above 100 tons.;----------

A 3rd Mate in Commander, leaving port, no less.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage