Spent much of the weekend sorting my charts... had a lot more than I
thought. Some go back to the 1960s & '70s and have courses & fixes &
notes from ancient voyages (one has 'Beware! Here Be Ye Edge O' Ye
Worlde'). Old charts are cool but not very useful.

Normally I roll up my charts, keeping them grouped by area, and store
them in large diameter tubes w/ caps. Every couple months, I used to
re-roll them the other way so they would take too much of a "set." Well
of course this system worked great when applied rigorously, but as
years go by things get disorganized & you slack up... some of the
charts were like a coiled piece of spring steel and took 4 heavy books
on each corner to hold open... no way you could use that for
navigation.

How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or completely
unfamiliar... area?

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

wrote in message
oups.com...

How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or completely
unfamiliar... area?

I would not use an old chart at all in an unfamiliar area. Sandbanks move,
buoys are shifted, wrecks appear, lights change characteristics, etc etc.
Forget old charts for navigation. Frame them and hang them on the wall if
you like. But on your boat have new charts or ones that have been regularly
updated from 'Notices to Mariners' (or your local equivlent) either by
yourself or by returning your charts to a chart agent for correction up to
date.
Apart from being a danger to yourself and others your insurance may be
deemed invalid on grounds that you were negligent if you knowingly go to sea
with out-of-date charts.

Edgar wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or completely
unfamiliar... area?

I would not use an old chart at all in an unfamiliar area. Sandbanks move,
buoys are shifted, wrecks appear, lights change characteristics, etc etc.
Forget old charts for navigation. Frame them and hang them on the wall if
you like. But on your boat have new charts or ones that have been regularly
updated from 'Notices to Mariners' (or your local equivlent) either by
yourself or by returning your charts to a chart agent for correction up to
date.
Apart from being a danger to yourself and others your insurance may be
deemed invalid on grounds that you were negligent if you knowingly go to sea
with out-of-date charts.

Greetings Edgar;

What about charts of islands like King's or Palymyra that have not
been updated in over 100 years? They would be better then nothing
right? I have over 100 charts aboard my boat and some date back to the
mid 40's. Also for ocean passages I do not see much changing in mid
Pacific or Atlantic. I would agree in a port with major traffic, an up
to date chart is the one to use. I'd never ask a sailor to turn his
charts into wall paper.

Capt. American

Apart from being a danger to yourself and others your insurance may be
deemed invalid on grounds that you were negligent if you knowingly go to sea
with out-of-date charts.

Depends on how bad you screw up & if you're stupid enough to say "This
wouldn't have happened if I'd had up to date charts."

Capt.American wrote:
What about charts of islands like King's or Palymyra that have not
been updated in over 100 years?

Read Edgar's reply again and check for any N2Ms that have come out for
the area.

They would be better then nothing
right? I have over 100 charts aboard my boat and some date back to the
mid 40's. Also for ocean passages I do not see much changing in mid
Pacific or Atlantic.

You have a chart of the mid Atlantic? What a coincidence, so do I.... a
blank piece of paper.

Ever heard the phrase "off soundings"?


I would agree in a port with major traffic, an up
to date chart is the one to use.

What does traffic have to do with the chart?

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

Capt.American wrote:
Edgar wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or completely
unfamiliar... area?
I would not use an old chart at all in an unfamiliar area. Sandbanks move,
buoys are shifted, wrecks appear, lights change characteristics, etc etc.
Forget old charts for navigation. Frame them and hang them on the wall if
you like. But on your boat have new charts or ones that have been regularly
updated from 'Notices to Mariners' (or your local equivlent) either by
yourself or by returning your charts to a chart agent for correction up to
date.
Apart from being a danger to yourself and others your insurance may be
deemed invalid on grounds that you were negligent if you knowingly go to sea
with out-of-date charts.

Greetings Edgar;

What about charts of islands like King's or Palymyra that have not
been updated in over 100 years? They would be better then nothing
right? I have over 100 charts aboard my boat and some date back to the
mid 40's. Also for ocean passages I do not see much changing in mid
Pacific or Atlantic. I would agree in a port with major traffic, an up
to date chart is the one to use. I'd never ask a sailor to turn his
charts into wall paper.

I have a 1867 Boston Harbor chart framed on the wall - there are more
than a few differences. In particular, we now have a major airport in
the middle of the harbor! There are lots of details I find
fascinating. For instance, the major hazard in the harbor is a bar,
actually a set of rocks, called "Lower Middle," but there is no "upper
middle." In fact, the old chart shows "Upper Middle" in an area that
has long been filled in. On the other hand, its interesting that
numerous navaids are still in the same location that there were in 140
years ago.

wrote:
Apart from being a danger to yourself and others your insurance may be
deemed invalid on grounds that you were negligent if you knowingly go to sea
with out-of-date charts.

Depends on how bad you screw up & if you're stupid enough to say "This
wouldn't have happened if I'd had up to date charts."

Capt.American wrote:
What about charts of islands like King's or Palymyra that have not
been updated in over 100 years?

Read Edgar's reply again and check for any N2Ms that have come out for
the area.

Just who is updating the LNM on King's island or palmyra?

They would be better then nothing
right? I have over 100 charts aboard my boat and some date back to the
mid 40's. Also for ocean passages I do not see much changing in mid
Pacific or Atlantic.

You have a chart of the mid Atlantic? What a coincidence, so do I.... a
blank piece of paper.

Sounds good for whiping your ass Tonto.

My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds, shipping lanes,
currents, soundings in fathoms, loran lines, lease blocks, compass
rose, loran linear interpolator, variation factors, pollution reports,
ship wrecks, conversion tables, explosive dumping areas, submarine
operation areas, radio range info, reefs, islands, atolls, bottom info,
ect..ect..ect and thats the simple charts, not the pilot chart which
have average currents, wind, and information beyond your simple
understanding of charts.

After reading the responce you provided I suggest you hang your charts
on the wall and marvel at all the information you have no clue existed.
What a putz you are you deserve a chart that rolls up when you try to
use it. Go buy software with a chart plotter GPS interface.
Surely you can push a few buttons right?


Ever heard the phrase "off soundings"?


I would agree in a port with major traffic, an up
to date chart is the one to use.

What does traffic have to do with the chart?

High traffic areas have marked channels, dredging, bouys dragged off
location, ranges, light list, designated anchorage areas, ect.. and
lots of mariners that submit reports for an up to date Local Notice to
Mariners. Charts in high traffic areas are in general more up to date
and critical to safe navigation.

In an area like a secluded cove or harbor with no traffic and no aids
to navigation and older chart showing depths, currents, bottom info is
all that is needed to safely navigate.

Hope this helps.

Capt. American

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

Capt.American wrote:
Sounds good for whiping your ass Tonto.


You couldn't whip a bowl of milk


My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds,

Wow! Lines on paper!

soundings in fathoms,

Why do you need to know how deep the water in the middle of th eocean
is? Are you really at risk of running aground there? Gonna drop anchor?

..... loran lines, lease blocks, compass
rose, loran linear interpolator, variation factors, pollution reports,

Anywhere your boat is

ship wrecks, conversion tables, explosive dumping areas, submarine
operation areas

The whole ocean is a "submarine operating area."

.... reefs, islands, atolls

Now there you have something... OTOH if it has a shoreline, it's not
the "middle of the ocean" any more, is it?

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

"Capt.American" wrote in message
ups.com...

After reading the responce you provided I suggest you hang your charts
on the wall and marvel at all the information you have no clue existed.
What a putz you are you deserve a chart that rolls up when you try to
use it. Go buy software with a chart plotter GPS interface.
Surely you can push a few buttons right?


Capt. American's reply does raise another interesting issue.
Like I implied in my last post, I do have paper charts for everywhere I go
but I also have a chart plotter aboard and the memory chip for this cost me
the equivalent of $330. Now where I sail in Oslo fjord this remains useful
because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of islands and small rocks
which do not change and there are hardly any navigational buoys and no
sandbanks at all so the chip on the plotter is still a useful guide and I
only bought it last year anyway. But how often is someone who has bought
one of these expensive chips going to get an updated one?
Paper charts are not cheap but you can afford to update/replace them as
necessary, so IMO they are not outdated technology until chart plotter chips
come down to reasonable figures.

wrote
How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or completely
unfamiliar... area?


Get with the program Injun Ear! Any competent sailor who stores charts stores them flat.
Any real voyaging or cruising sailboat has a chart locker where you can store about a foot deep
of charts flat and unfolded. Rolling them up is stupid. It makes them about impossible to use.
Actually, paper charts are stupid anymore. You can get free electronic charts from the WEB and
they are the most up to datest you can get at the time. If you really demand paper charts then print
them on your printer from the e-chart.

Cheers,
Ellen

Edgar wrote:
"Capt.American" wrote in message
ups.com...

After reading the responce you provided I suggest you hang your charts
on the wall and marvel at all the information you have no clue existed.
What a putz you are you deserve a chart that rolls up when you try to
use it. Go buy software with a chart plotter GPS interface.
Surely you can push a few buttons right?


Capt. American's reply does raise another interesting issue.
Like I implied in my last post, I do have paper charts for everywhere I go
but I also have a chart plotter aboard and the memory chip for this cost me
the equivalent of $330. Now where I sail in Oslo fjord this remains useful
because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of islands and small rocks
which do not change and there are hardly any navigational buoys and no
sandbanks at all so the chip on the plotter is still a useful guide and I
only bought it last year anyway. But how often is someone who has bought
one of these expensive chips going to get an updated one?

A really good point. I use a Garmin GPSMap 175, given to me in 1997.
The chart I use most often, Portland to Cape Cod, will be 10 years
old next summer and the format is now obsolete. I have a number of
slightly newer chips for the East Coast, but nothing more recent then
2000.

Fortunately, this is not my primary tool, I use the GPS to verify my
position on a paper chart, which is up to date.

I'm glad you brought this up because I'm planning to head Down East
this coming summer and don't have the chip, so I have to start looking
on ebay!


Paper charts are not cheap but you can afford to update/replace them as
necessary, so IMO they are not outdated technology until chart plotter chips
come down to reasonable figures.