I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories of
that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He did
not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and sail
a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew it
all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in failure.
It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor sailor
while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE BIG FLAT
WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily they would
be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect at some time
during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out to be pitiful
in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he was hanging above
his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few last glimpses of his
unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with the
manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch. Did he
ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have panicked,
faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front but
he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he was
unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they are very
uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing that should
cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle should
have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have been given
and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee cloth to keep her
in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if she was panicked and
whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did not even try heaving-to
or running before it. The video shows mainsail and jigger sheeted in
tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And the rudder failure? What
kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder with no stops or inadequate
stops if any such existed. Any real blue water sailor knows how to look
after his rudder and steering gear. You don't allow your boat to be blown
backwards using a drogue from the bows or forced head to the seas with
mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes a beating and gets slammed this way
and that. And what about adequate pumps? The holes in the transom caused by
the rudder's banging were well above the LWL so they only took water when it
splashed up or the transom pitched down. A real bilge pump could have easily
handled the ingress. And what about collision bulkheads or flotation foam?
Any real blue water boat has one or two of these forward and aft just in
case of a breached hull in those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would have
put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any real
sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to avoid would
have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where shelter from
strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays. Then, with a good
weather window he could have taken two or three days on a nice safe and
comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his arrogant and
boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a failed attempt
to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this if one is a real
blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil rigs
that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000 feet of
water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the depth there
is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL PLATFORMS but one in
that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, a high tech,
semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored in 8000 feet of water
drilling test wells into the Perdido formation 32,000 feet below the
surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC Boudreaux were just about
nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples of
how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is going
to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can talk because
I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the time I would
have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I refused to let
discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I really feel I have
the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of Mother Nature that's
needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to offer. Combine these with a
seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced crew and you won't end up as a
bad example like the Captain of the ill-fated and prematurely abandoned "RED
CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories
of that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He
did not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and
sail a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew
it all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in failure.
It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor
sailor while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE
BIG FLAT WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily
they would be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect
at some time during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out
to be pitiful in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he was
hanging above his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few last
glimpses of his unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with
the manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch.
Did he ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have
panicked, faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front
but he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he
was unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they are
very uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing that
should cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle
should have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have
been given and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee
cloth to keep her in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if she
was panicked and whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did not
even try heaving-to or running before it. The video shows mainsail and
jigger sheeted in tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And the
rudder failure? What kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder with
no stops or inadequate stops if any such existed. Any real blue water
sailor knows how to look after his rudder and steering gear. You don't
allow your boat to be blown backwards using a drogue from the bows or
forced head to the seas with mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes a
beating and gets slammed this way and that. And what about adequate pumps?
The holes in the transom caused by the rudder's banging were well above
the LWL so they only took water when it splashed up or the transom pitched
down. A real bilge pump could have easily handled the ingress. And what
about collision bulkheads or flotation foam? Any real blue water boat has
one or two of these forward and aft just in case of a breached hull in
those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would have
put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any real
sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to avoid
would have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where shelter
from strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays. Then, with
a good weather window he could have taken two or three days on a nice safe
and comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his arrogant and
boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a failed attempt
to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this if one is a real
blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil
rigs that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000
feet of water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the
depth there is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL PLATFORMS
but one in that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, a
high tech, semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored in 8000 feet of
water drilling test wells into the Perdido formation 32,000 feet below the
surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC Boudreaux were just
about nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples
of how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is
going to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can talk
because I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the time
I would have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I refused
to let discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I really
feel I have the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of Mother
Nature that's needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to offer.
Combine these with a seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced crew
and you won't end up as a bad example like the Captain of the ill-fated
and prematurely abandoned "RED CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?

"Thomas, Spring Point Light" wrote in message
news:l6SKj.1529$Xy2.29@trndny04...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories
of that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He
did not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and
sail a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew
it all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in
failure. It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor
sailor while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE
BIG FLAT WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily
they would be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect
at some time during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out
to be pitiful in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he
was hanging above his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few
last glimpses of his unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery
grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with
the manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch.
Did he ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have
panicked, faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front
but he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he
was unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they
are very uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing
that should cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle
should have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have
been given and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee
cloth to keep her in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if
she was panicked and whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did
not even try heaving-to or running before it. The video shows mainsail
and jigger sheeted in tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And
the rudder failure? What kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder
with no stops or inadequate stops if any such existed. Any real blue
water sailor knows how to look after his rudder and steering gear. You
don't allow your boat to be blown backwards using a drogue from the bows
or forced head to the seas with mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes
a beating and gets slammed this way and that. And what about adequate
pumps? The holes in the transom caused by the rudder's banging were well
above the LWL so they only took water when it splashed up or the transom
pitched down. A real bilge pump could have easily handled the ingress.
And what about collision bulkheads or flotation foam? Any real blue water
boat has one or two of these forward and aft just in case of a breached
hull in those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would
have put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any
real sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to
avoid would have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where
shelter from strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays.
Then, with a good weather window he could have taken two or three days on
a nice safe and comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his
arrogant and boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a
failed attempt to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this
if one is a real blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil
rigs that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000
feet of water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the
depth there is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL
PLATFORMS but one in that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde
Boudreaux, a high tech, semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored
in 8000 feet of water drilling test wells into the Perdido formation
32,000 feet below the surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC
Boudreaux were just about nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples
of how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is
going to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can
talk because I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the
time I would have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I
refused to let discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I
really feel I have the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of
Mother Nature that's needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to
offer. Combine these with a seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced
crew and you won't end up as a bad example like the Captain of the
ill-fated and prematurely abandoned "RED CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some Rube posted a link to a supposed Red Cloud but it was not the real
thing. Last I heard the Captain of the "Red Cloud" himself stated she was
'gone.'

Wilbur Hubbard
(grounded in reality)

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

"Marty" wrote in message
...
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Maybe the dude doesn't have a closed mind like you do? Maybe he knows the
truth when he reads the truth? Maybe he's not a whiner and complainer like
you. Maybe he doesn't read newsgroups as an excuse engage in censorship?

--
Gregory Hall


Wilbur Hubbard wrote the following great post:

I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories of
that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He did
not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and sail
a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew it
all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in failure.
It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor sailor
while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE BIG FLAT
WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily they would
be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect at some time
during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out to be pitiful
in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he was hanging above
his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few last glimpses of his
unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with the
manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch. Did he
ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have panicked,
faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front but
he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he was
unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they are very
uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing that should
cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle should
have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have been given
and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee cloth to keep her
in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if she was panicked and
whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did not even try heaving-to
or running before it. The video shows mainsail and jigger sheeted in
tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And the rudder failure? What
kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder with no stops or inadequate
stops if any such existed. Any real blue water sailor knows how to look
after his rudder and steering gear. You don't allow your boat to be blown
backwards using a drogue from the bows or forced head to the seas with
mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes a beating and gets slammed this way
and that. And what about adequate pumps? The holes in the transom caused by
the rudder's banging were well above the LWL so they only took water when it
splashed up or the transom pitched down. A real bilge pump could have easily
handled the ingress. And what about collision bulkheads or flotation foam?
Any real blue water boat has one or two of these forward and aft just in
case of a breached hull in those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would have
put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any real
sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to avoid would
have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where shelter from
strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays. Then, with a good
weather window he could have taken two or three days on a nice safe and
comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his arrogant and
boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a failed attempt
to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this if one is a real
blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil rigs
that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000 feet of
water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the depth there
is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL PLATFORMS but one in
that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, a high tech,
semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored in 8000 feet of water
drilling test wells into the Perdido formation 32,000 feet below the
surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC Boudreaux were just about
nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples of
how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is going
to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can talk because
I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the time I would
have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I refused to let
discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I really feel I have
the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of Mother Nature that's
needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to offer. Combine these with a
seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced crew and you won't end up as a
bad example like the Captain of the ill-fated and prematurely abandoned "RED
CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

OzOne wrote:
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.


Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the same
post twice? My cognitive functions are perfectly up to par. Perhaps
your memory functions are failing. Besides, it's plain decent netequette
to snip and post only what's relevant to ones reply.

Cheers
Marty

On Apr 8, 7:57 pm, OzOne wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:
Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:

Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?

Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.




A lot of things around Marty are closed....good restaurants (to him),
his own mind, the legs of any woman withing 20 yards of him.
Farty Marty.....A big WIND is a'blowin'!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the
same
post twice?


WOW!!! You must be exhausted!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:25:37 -0400, Marty wrote:

OzOne wrote:
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.


Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the same
post twice? My cognitive functions are perfectly up to par. Perhaps
your memory functions are failing. Besides, it's plain decent netequette
to snip and post only what's relevant to ones reply.

Cheers
Marty

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.