As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be
really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its
why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason
you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower
unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the
next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a
decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw
in the dumpster a piece at a time.

If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...
As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

On Sep 25, 2:45*am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and *installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in ...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. *Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. *Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. * I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never
use a cable system again.

I guess the hydraulic steering on my BassCat that swings that 250ProXS
around at 70+ mph easy as you please must not be properly installed then.
What should it do better? Steer the boat for me?

It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy
the parts.

Buy the parts? I already have a dual cable steering system that works
perfectly. It would crank a 150 Black Max around just fine at the 55 MPH it
was capable of pushing the boat it was on at. I also have single cable
steering on two smaller boats that works just fine.

In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong.

Ok. So other than lubricating the cables and push rods what OTHER
maintenance is there. They aren't electrical so no magic smoke to worry
about. LOL.

There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.

No maintenance really? Zero ever? So seals never start leaking, and they
never dry rot? And of course the cost of completely tearing down a
hydraulic cylinder to replace a seal is zero and takes no time when a seal
fails, as opposed to the 50¢ worth of Triple Grease you should use in your
steering once a year with cables? Or do you not count that as maintenance?
Or do you not believe in doing maintenance to replace seals before they fail
and instead call it repairs? If they never need maintenance why do
inspections? Even if a seal lasts ten years it will cost more to replace
than it cost you to keep your cables lubed properly.

Other than that push pull cable steering (not rope on a pulley) sucks
according to you, and hydraulics never need maintenance ever, do you see a
strong need not to use dual cable steering that adequately moved a 150
around under power for a jet drive lower unit which does not develop any
side torque that you need the extra mechanical advantage of hydraulics to
overcome? A cable system I already have and won't cost me anything other
than a little bit of grease to reinstall in this new project.

Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good!

Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering,
but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not
dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete
perfectly working dual cable steering system.



"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can
be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque.
Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any
reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a
jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do
hydraulic systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already
have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up
and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time.

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables
made to handle the application.

Bob,
My comments apply to the choice between hydraulic vs. cable steering. You certainly have a biased case because you own an
unemployed cable system, so your decision of using one over the other, in this case only, is based on "Does the extra value of
hydraulics warrant the cost over no cost for the existing cable system?" Your call.

My comments about installation and buying parts refer to the design of the hydraulic system. There are several ways to make
mistakes. So it is important to do your own arithmetic verifying other's recommendations before buying parts.

On the subject of maintenance, failures are very rare if either system is installed correctly. There is simply not enough use time
in a season were wear is a cause of failure. What failures I have seen are usually corrosion issues, which resulted in a poor
choice of parts and system components.
Steve

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Bob,
My comments apply to the choice between hydraulic vs. cable steering. You
certainly have a biased case because you own an unemployed cable system,
so your decision of using one over the other, in this case only, is based
on "Does the extra value of hydraulics warrant the cost over no cost for
the existing cable system?" Your call.

My comments about installation and buying parts refer to the design of the
hydraulic system. There are several ways to make mistakes. So it is
important to do your own arithmetic verifying other's recommendations
before buying parts.

On the subject of maintenance, failures are very rare if either system is
installed correctly. There is simply not enough use time in a season were
wear is a cause of failure. What failures I have seen are usually
corrosion issues, which resulted in a poor choice of parts and system
components.
Steve

I have seen seals start to leak on several bass boats. Since bass boats are
a breed apart with bigger ones really being high speed hulls with fishing
platforms they tend to see more abuse than other boats. The bass boats I
see tend to be the ones that are used as often as mine. In a good year
that's 2-3 days a week. We also fish all year around. This year its only
been about once a week. I had a seal start to go on my big boat and
replaced the entire steering cylinder with a heavier duty one. (at the same
time I upgraded my motor from a 225 to 250 ProXS.) The original was five
years old. That is pretty good, but it was about $600 after shopping around
for a new cylinder and an hour to swap it. Replacing the seal would have
been cheaper, but would have added another hour or two to the cost of fixing
it. Now clearly cable steering would have been totally unsuitable for
handling this much horsepower, and 225 horsepower produces an incredible
amount of side torque to put strain on everything when its run most of the
time at 80-90% of redline. (Bass anglers tend to have two speeds. Running
down the river like your hair is on fire, and idle.) You might argue of
course that because there was a heavier cylinder available that the original
was poor selection of components. The boat manufacturer selected it when
they built the boat, and the steering components manufacturer said it was
fine for the application. On that same 225 outboard I have had to replace
trim ram seals twice in the same period. Obviously hydraulics do sometimes
need maintenance and the repairs when they do are not trivial for somebody
who works for a wage.

I'm not arguing your points in particular. I'm just saying that in some
applications the maintenance and repairs may be considerably higher than you
think.

My particular application that I want to build is a 8-10 degree dead rise
pocket tunnel with large sponsons and relatively wide beam using my old 225
with a Outboard Jet Company AR lower unit for winter low water level river
running. Since as a jet it will have no side torque and the cables worked
fine handling a 150 I was wondering if there would be any unexpected
problems using them to run a jet. The jet will net about 160 at the pump if
general calculations hold true.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:


Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good!

Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering,
but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not
dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete
perfectly working dual cable steering system.

You are the one that asked the question.

I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked
if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a perfectly
functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that
question.

Quit being such a dickhead.

But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are
not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still really
didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of
superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really apply to
the question.

Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering
systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic systems
in his further reply.

Bob La Londe
Yuma, Az

On Sep 25, 11:04*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
"deerelk4x4" wrote in message

...



On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. *I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. *which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with
minimal maintenance. *Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. *If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. *I would still go with a hydraulic steering
system if I had no steering system already. *Tons of bassers had no issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. *As the motors get bigger, speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under
power with cable steering. *I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with
cable steering. *With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you
choose to link your motors together. *My dad's inshore / light offshore rig
has dual motors. *I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that
big of a deal. *He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. *I mean linear jacketed push pull cables
made to handle the application.

Thanks for the input. Yes this is a fresh installation. Do not
currently have a steering system and I am trying to find out which
method is better. The cable systems that I am looking at are of the
type you described, that being a jacketed cable system. I haven't
seen anything in supply store web sites about hydraulic, so the first
time heard of them was right here. any other ideas, thoughts or
inputs are greatly appreciated. currently the boat is upside-down and
slowly getting the battens, sheers, and chine placed so I can shape
the stem/keel and get ready to cover it. I have already purchased the
plywood (marine grade fir) to cover it, and will be glassing that
after finishing up.

Steve D

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 11:04 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
"deerelk4x4" wrote in message

...



On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would
never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much
less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications
it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously
push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too
in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however.
If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an
issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger,
speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn
under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine
with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how
you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore
rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is
that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s
back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull
cables
made to handle the application.

Thanks for the input. Yes this is a fresh installation. Do not
currently have a steering system and I am trying to find out which
method is better. The cable systems that I am looking at are of the
type you described, that being a jacketed cable system. I haven't
seen anything in supply store web sites about hydraulic, so the first
time heard of them was right here. any other ideas, thoughts or
inputs are greatly appreciated. currently the boat is upside-down and
slowly getting the battens, sheers, and chine placed so I can shape
the stem/keel and get ready to cover it. I have already purchased the
plywood (marine grade fir) to cover it, and will be glassing that
after finishing up.

I'm no expert on hydraulics, although I have had a couple boats with
hydraulic steering. If you decide to go that way or atleast investigate it
more thoroughly I suggest you start by beginning a new thread here. (since
I already torqued Steve L and Wally (pun intended) in this thread.) I do
not doubt Steve is well versed in hydraulic steering and could guide you
towards the best compromise between price and durability for your
application.

I suspect that a dual cable steering would probably be overkill for you, but
I have not run single cable on anything over 60HP personally. I also think
the side torque of two 40s will be greater than that of a single 80 unless
they are counter rotating (which I think is unlikely in that size). For
that low of an HP rating almost any decent hydraulic will probably allow you
to steer with one hand.

Teleflex is one company who makes hydraulic steering systems. There may be
others, but it's the one I am familiar with.