Wow...talk about a wide open question, or series of them

In very general terms, boats built prior to the first gas crisis tend to
be more likely to be "solid" glass than those built after. BUT, in the
smaller boat (and some larger ones too) you can also run into some built
by "chopper" gun, i.e. resin and fiber sprayed into a mold instead of
layers of woven cloth or mat and resin.

There have been so many manufacturers who have come and gone, some
producing both good and bad boats throughout their lifetime. You will
probably have more luck getting information/knowledge if you dug up a
couple of "sample" boats and began your questioning/working from there,
lord knows there are a zillion 18 ft runabouts lying in backyards and
back lots, many there for the taking.

As for wood? If you find an old wood boat that has been coated very
late in its life with glass and resin, it's probably a disaster in rot,
the same boat, if it was built piece by piece and epoxy encapsulated as
part of the construction process, can be both beautiful and strong.
Again, you have to narrow your questions down to an individual boat.

Aluminum? talk to an auto body guy.....

While others may chip in about brand they are familiar with, you CAN be
reasonably secure if you look at older Boston Whalers. They have always
been well built, are very tough and hard to damage. Some older ones may
have absorbed water in between their two hulls, but that can be dealt
with by hanging them from a tree for a year or two, with a couple of
points allowing the water to drain slowly out, generally.

have fun,

Jonathan


wrote:
I am planning to get a 18-ft used boat at low cost and fit it up. I
would like to see what kind of used boats are considered as "good
enough" for a DIY fix-it-up.

The kind of used boats that I am looking for:
- 18-ft
- Semi-V
- Center console or open deck (like a utility boat)
- Either fiberglass or aluminum, or even wood
- Only need the haul, no motor
- Very cheap

What I need to know are what kind of damage on the boat that are too
expensive to repair (meaning that the damage is so extensive that even
a "DIY fix-it-up" will cost too much; hence, better off paying a bit
more to get one that is in a better shape).

Aluminum boats:
I am under the impression that aluminum boats are great for fixing
because the repair job is relatively easy, and the problem areas can
easily be found. I assume that those problems like "pin hole leak",
"rivet leak", and "seam leak" can be fixed and are not big problems (I
am quite handy and I can find people in the shop to teach me how to
weld). I guess I only need to avoid aluminum boats that are bent out of
shape, or has rust and corrosion in areas where I cannot weld a flat
piece of marine aluminum on it. Is that right?

Fiberglass boats:
Based on articles in Yacht Survey online, fiberglass can hide many
problems, and the problem cannot be seen from outside. And those boats
may not have enough fiberglass in it. Sound like this can be a can of
worms. What should I watch out for? How can I find a "true" fiberglass
boat? Is there any particular model-year of fiberglass boat that is
"true" fiberglass boat? Can I fix any problem by wrapping the hull with
two layers of fiberglass?

Wooden boats:
I assume I should simply avoid them unless they have been enclosed
with resin and fiberglass.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

In very general terms, boats built prior to the first gas
crisis tend to be more likely to be "solid" glass than
those built after. ...

Great tip! Then I should be happy to hear that a boat is from the
1960's or the early 1970's. Good! Those old boats should cost less
anyway.

... BUT, in the smaller boat (and some larger ones too) you
can also run into some built by "chopper" gun, i.e. resin
and fiber sprayed into a mold instead of layers of woven
cloth or mat and resin.

If a small boats were built by "chopped" gun, its hull material is
still made from fiberglass, and not those "cored material", and should
be good in term of limiting water damage, right? I am under the
impression that the problem of a boat that were built using "chopped"
gun is that it is not as structurally strong as a fiberglass boat that
was made from long-thread fiberglass. I am wondering whether I can
strengthen such a boat by wrapping the hull with two layer of
fiberglass.

Obviously, this kind of boat should not be my first choice. I am asking
this just to satisfy my curiosity.

There have been so many manufacturers who have come and gone, some
producing both good and bad boats throughout their lifetime. You will
probably have more luck getting information/knowledge if you dug up a
couple of "sample" boats and began your questioning/working from there,
lord knows there are a zillion 18 ft runabouts lying in backyards and
back lots, many there for the taking.

I see. I will have to shop around and then get back here.

As for wood? If you find an old wood boat that has been coated very
late in its life with glass and resin, it's probably a disaster in rot,
the same boat, if it was built piece by piece and epoxy encapsulated as
part of the construction process, can be both beautiful and strong.

Thanks for the tip. I will watch out for this.

..., you CAN be reasonably secure if you look at older
Boston Whalers. They have always been well built, are
very tough and hard to damage. Some older ones may
have absorbed water in between their two hulls, but
that can be dealt with by hanging them from a tree
for a year or two, with a couple of points allowing
the water to drain slowly out, generally.

Thanks for the suggestion. But seem like this kind of boat has the
interior of the hull totally sealed up by deck, and cannot be easily
examined and maintained. I guess I could cut away the "fixed deck" of a
Boston Whaler and convert it into removable panels. But I am afraid
that the "fixed deck" may be a part of the structure. Cutting away the
"fixed deck" may weaken the boat. I am just hoping that I can find a
boat that has removable deck panels that we can move away and examine
the inside of the hull.

Jay Chan

In article ,
Jonathan Wye wrote:

Some older ones may
have absorbed water in between their two hulls, but that can be dealt
with by hanging them from a tree for a year or two, with a couple of
points allowing the water to drain slowly out, generally.

hope your neighbors have a sense of humor and appreciate "yard art".

I've had quite a bit of experience working on boats, some for my main
occupation which is as a welder/fabricator and some just on my own or
friends boats. Steel hulls can be good and lets face it; welding steel
is not a difficult skill with a little practice. Im not telling you to
weld up your own hull and go sail the world, but most people with a 3
month part time course or a couple of weeks very intensive training can
learn almost all they'd need to know to operate an oxy torch, a mig
welder (or stick if you dont mind rolling the hull over) and some basic
forming skills. I've worked on steel hulls from 25' to 10,000 tonnes
with hull thicknesses from 1/4" to 1". With the right tools and enough
time you can do as good a job as any manufacturer. Make sure you've
got it right before you trust your life to it though.

Aluminum is a bit trickier, but its mostly more of a tool game. Dents
can be fixed with something as simple as two hammers. Forming is not
hard but you'll need a couple of dollys and to learn how to anneal.
Most aluminum work hardens. Cracks/splits are another story, and leaks
can often be mended with some silicone. If you've got lots of time and
little money and are somewhere close to america, buy an oxy/acetylene
rig (under $300) and then get one of these miracle gas welding torches
like the meco midget, see here;

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.html

these are used for super high tech fabrication of airplanes, F1 race
cars, high end motorcycles and bicycles. The guys at the above webpage
have excellent demo days, materials and videos. Expect to spend 6
months+ learning this very valuable and highly sought after skill. You
will be very popular if you can master it.

If you have lots of money and little time then MIG aluminum is more for
you. I've done plenty of aluminum work with boats, and at the harder
end the latest high tech tip trailers for big trucks. Dont settle for
anything less than a push/pull system (small motor pulling the wire
that is contained in the gun). Expect to pay somewhere in the vicinity
of $20,000 for the latest fronius or kempi welders that will have you
welding aluminum to survey standard within an afternoon. Anything less
(like even $5,000) just will not cut the mustard. I've tried most of
the stuff on the market. Forget anything that costs less than $1000,
or any welder that claimes to be adabtable to aluminum; you're wasting
your time and money. If you dont have the money to get into this game
then call around to find out who is making aluminum truck bodies and
turn up any day of the week except Friday near their closing time with
a case of beer and your boat. They will have _plenty_ of scrap in the
bin.

My personal experience with fibreglass seems to be the same as others
who have already posted. In the early days, folk who were making boats
out of the stuff seemed hesitant, and they used the same thickness of
solid fibreglass as they had been using for wood before then! None of
these boats were speed demons, but they were _solid_ and many are still
doing circumnavigations. After these first boats didnt sink they got
comfortable and started experimenting with different ideas.... these
middle boats are hit and miss and you really need to dig, talk to
owners of the same boat, find out the companies history, talk to the
guys running the company if its still in operation. They are very
helpful if they're still around and have memories that will amaze you.
With newer boats they seem to have got it right with hull thickness and
composites/sandwhiches.

Cant speak for wood except to say whenever i see a wooden boat i want
one but im scared at the same time. There are some very handsome
wooden boats out there, and it strikes me as more a craft than
fibreglass though i cant say why. I cant help but rub my hands over
the hull, and then knock on it. This is something i've seen people who
have never sailed in their life do, so it must be in our basic D.N.A or
something ;-) The sound tells a lot.

Shaun

Thanks for sharing your experience in various ways of boat building.

Steel hulls can be good and lets face it...
Aluminum is a bit trickier, but its mostly more of a tool game...

The fact that you have many years of experience with steel and aluminum
construction, I can understand that you think using steel and aluminum
is quite doable. But I must say that I am even more convinced not to
get involved with repairing a steel / aluminum boat after I have read
your post. The learning curve and upfront investment seems to be a bit
too high for me. This probably explains the reason why people tend to
recommend us to ask metal worker to fix aluminum boats instead of
trying to do it ourselves. If I end up having an aluminum boat that
need fixing, I would definitely sent it to a repair shop that knows how
to deal with aluminum.

In the early days, folk who were making boats
out of the stuff seemed hesitant, and they used
the same thickness of solid fibreglass as they
had been using for wood before then! ... After
these first boats didnt sink they got comfortable
and started experimenting with different ideas....
these middle boats are hit and miss and you really
need to dig, ... With newer boats they seem to
have got it right with hull thickness and
composites/sandwhiches.

Thanks for pointing out the three different periods of fiberglass
boats. Seem like I should stick with either very old fiberglass boat,
or very recent fiberglass boat. For my budget, I probably should
concentrate on very old fiberglass boat (speed doesn't matter to me).
According to other people, I probably should focus on boat that are
before the first oil crisis, and that will be before 1973. Between
checking the age of the boat and knocking at the hull to check its
condition, I am hoping that I can find a good solid fiberboat that
needs some fixing and doesn't cost a lot of money (I need to save some
money to buy a brand new gas engine).

Cant speak for wood except to say whenever i see a wooden boat i want
one but im scared at the same time. ...

I thought about building a wooden boat with fiberglass reinforcement
after watching boat building TV shows. But fixing a used boat seems to
be a cheaper and faster alternative than building a new one. And I have
an impression that fixing an old wooden boat is not really a good idea
(the whole hull may have to be replaced). Therefore, I will have to
skip wooden boat, and concentrate my search on either aluminum or
fiberglass boats.

Jay Chan

... But I must say that I am even more convinced not to
get involved with repairing a steel / aluminum boat after I have read
your post. The learning curve and upfront investment seems to be a bit
too high for me.

Investment, maybe not. You can get a steel boat for a song, and aluminum
for not much more.

If you're already a skilled welder, then it makes sense. A few years
ago, seeing a number of aluminum boats on the market, of a type that I
liked a lot, at a good price, I looked into learning to weld aluminum...
unfortunately aluminum is the trickiest stuff to work, not practical as
a handyman project. But it's great engineering material, boats made of
it can be light & strong & durable.



In the early days, folk who were making boats
out of the stuff seemed hesitant, and they used
the same thickness of solid fibreglass as they
had been using for wood before then! ... After
these first boats didnt sink they got comfortable
and started experimenting with different ideas.

Excuse me, but this is a total myth. The idea that "early fiberglass
boatbuilders didn't know how strong it was" is incorrect.

In the 1940s and 1950s, the U.S. Navy began building small utility craft
out of fiberglass and commissioned exhaustive studies of the material.
Many of the early boatbuilders worked on those projects and knew as much
about it as any designer/builder does nowadays.


... With newer boats they seem to
have got it right with hull thickness and
composites/sandwhiches.


Fiberglass *is* a composite. With regard to cored construction, that has
always been an issue firstly of build quality, as laminating cores takes
careful attention (ie skilled labor) whereas chopper gun or even "hand
lay up" is much less demanding. So choice of materials & care in
building produced excellent cored structures even in the middle 1960s.
The 2nd part of that equation is care & maintenance. If the owner never
bothered to rebed the deck fittings & let water seep into the core, then
it gets screwed up.

BTW for anybody who doesn't think that cored fiberglass hulls don't
last, the first balsa-cored sailboat 'Red Jacket' is still sailing and
still sound.


wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the three different periods of fiberglass
boats. Seem like I should stick with either very old fiberglass boat,
or very recent fiberglass boat.

Well, you should start out by doing some field work. Join a crew and do
a lot of sailing. Trudge around to the sailing clubs and work at getting
rides on as many different boats as you can. Keep a notebook to record
your impressions of the different boats.



According to other people, I probably should focus on boat that are
before the first oil crisis, and that will be before 1973.

Well, there is a slight amount of truth to that, mostly due to speed of
production as much as anything else. But a lot of those old very thick
hulled boats are mostly resin, which is brittle. Heavy ain't necessarily
strong, despite the numerous old wives tales about the strength of 2" or
6" or whatever thick fiberglass in the old pre-Nixon boats. A lot of
what's said around the docks on this subject is old wives tales and
utter nonsense.


... I am hoping that I can find a good solid fiberboat that
needs some fixing and doesn't cost a lot of money

Be darn sure you don't under estimate the cost of fixing. Spend some
time with the various marine catalogs and price things like running
rigging, wiring, marine paints, etc etc.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

unfortunately aluminum is the trickiest stuff to work,
not practical as a handyman project. But it's great
engineering material, boats made of it can be light
& strong & durable.

Yes, you are right. This is the reason why I would ask repair shop to
fix the boat if I get an aluminum boat that needs fixing.

Well, you should start out by doing some field work. Join a crew and do
a lot of sailing. Trudge around to the sailing clubs and work at getting
rides on as many different boats as you can. Keep a notebook to record
your impressions of the different boats.

I am looking for a small powered boat for fishing. I think I know what
I need: A 17-ft/18-ft small center console that is made in aluminum or
fiberglass. I have been using rental boats for years. I need a boat for
myself that I can rig it to the way that I want.

Well, there is a slight amount of truth to that, mostly due to speed of
production as much as anything else. But a lot of those old very thick
hulled boats are mostly resin, which is brittle. Heavy ain't necessarily
strong, despite the numerous old wives tales about the strength of 2" or
6" or whatever thick fiberglass in the old pre-Nixon boats. A lot of
what's said around the docks on this subject is old wives tales and
utter nonsense.

In other words, I am better off examining the boat itself instead of
worrying about too much of its production year: Knocking around the
hull to see how much repair work that the boat will need ... etc. And I
need to keep an open mind with used boats, and don't be too quick in
eliminating a boat just because it was old or it was built in certain
years.

Sound like a workable plan to me. Thanks.

Be darn sure you don't under estimate the cost of fixing. Spend some
time with the various marine catalogs and price things like running
rigging, wiring, marine paints, etc etc.

Yes, I have been reading mail order catalogs to see how much new
fittings will cost. I will revisit some boat yards soon to see whether
they carry fittings that come off from old boat. Hopefully, old
fittings cost less than the new ones.

Jay Chan

wrote:
I am looking for a small powered boat for fishing. I think I know what
I need: A 17-ft/18-ft small center console that is made in aluminum or
fiberglass. I have been using rental boats for years. I need a boat for
myself that I can rig it to the way that I want.


Now I see, I thought you were going after a bigger more complex boat.


.... A lot of
what's said around the docks on this subject is old wives tales and
utter nonsense.


In other words, I am better off examining the boat itself instead of
worrying about too much of its production year: Knocking around the
hull to see how much repair work that the boat will need ... etc. And I
need to keep an open mind with used boats, and don't be too quick in
eliminating a boat just because it was old or it was built in certain
years.

Sound like a workable plan to me. Thanks.


You're welcome, sorry I can't be more help.
One piece of generic advice... types/brands boats seem to build
reputations in sort of the same way sports teams do... ie parallel
tracks, one having to do with reality and the other arising entirely
from wishful thinking on the part of the fans. Everyone will love to
tell you how great their boat is... this is a good source of info about
that type of boat as long as you can seperate out the two types of info.
Holds true for fishing boats as well as sail boats.

Fair Skies
Doug King