Listers,

I have been working on a fresh water system to install on a 45 foot
cruising monohull sailboat. Does anyone know of any online schematics
or idea lists that may provide me with another line of thought? Any
books you have found helpful would be a good tip also? I will post my
schematic in a few days for comments.

D

As usual, mine is probably more complex than most. I have 3 tanks and a
watermaker. There are also 3 manifolds. The first is the supply
selector and has 4 ball valves one for each tank and one for shore
supply. It is then routed to the pressure pumps, a pair of 3 gpm Grocos
in parallel with one set slightly higher pressure than the other and a
left/right/both selector switch. That gives me some redundancy and in
the "both" position the lower pressure pump only turns on when the
primary can't keep up with demand.

Off the cold water pressure line is a transfer manifold with a valve for
each tank so that water can be moved around as needed for trim and balast.

The third manifold distributes watermaker product.

There is also a crossover valve (backed up by a check valve) to supply
fresh water to the washdown system pump when on shore supply.

My entire system is double clamped hose. If I had it to do over again I
would have seriously looked at Quest. Teeing in a branch line to a sink
or shower takes 16 marine grade hose clamps and that gets mighty expensive.

Aluminumhullsailor wrote:
Listers,

I have been working on a fresh water system to install on a 45 foot
cruising monohull sailboat. Does anyone know of any online schematics
or idea lists that may provide me with another line of thought? Any
books you have found helpful would be a good tip also? I will post my
schematic in a few days for comments.

D


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Aluminumhullsailor writes:

I have been working on a fresh water system to install on a 45 foot
cruising monohull sailboat. Does anyone know of any online schematics
or idea lists that may provide me with another line of thought? Any
books you have found helpful would be a good tip also? I will post my
schematic in a few days for comments.

I have six (6) built in potable water tanks, three (3) on each side, each
with about a 50 gallon capacity on the boat I'm building.

Before you ask, NO, I do not plan on having 300 gallons of potable water on
board.

This was done for two (2) reasons.

All tanks are below the sole and had the space not been developed as
tankage, it would have remained as undeveloped space under the sole that
would collect who knows what, and sooner or later get contaminated with
bilge water. Building tanks eliminated this problem.

That fact that there are equal tanks on both starboard and port allows the
potable water to be used as liquid ballast. (BTW, also did this with twelve
(12) diesel tanks)

Each tank is equipped with a vent, a 1-1/2" fill nozzle, a 1/2" return, and
a 1/2" plugged connection for future.

These connections are contained in a removable fiberglass access hatch held
in place with 316 S/S coarse thread self tapping screws and SikaFlex 291.

All tanks are integral to the hull and coated with two (2) coats of tank
resin.

At the bottom of the tank, a bronze thru hull and bronze ball valve serve as
the tank outlet.

The six (6) tank outlets are plumbed together with potable water hose and
then to the suction side of both a Jabsco Centrifugal transfer pump and a
standard diaphragm pump.

The six (6) return connections are also inter connected by means of more
1/2" ball valves and potable water hose from the outlet of the centrifugal
pump which is also equipped with 1/2" ball valves on both inlet and outlet.

The centrifugal serves as a transfer pump moving water from any tank to any
other tank.

The standard diaphragm pump serves the boat.

Each of these pumps is bolted down to a piece of carbon steel, 5"x10"x3/4"
which has been rust proofed.

The pump and steel plat as a unit are mounted using rubber bushings on the
side of a floor.

This provides a sound isolation system for these pumps since I calculate the
resonant frequency of the pump/plate to be around 50 Hz.

BTW, all other pumps face the same fate.

Since potable water is being used a standard household accumulator tank is
used (it contains brass so it can not be used on salt water).

A water maker will be installed so that the output is fed to a tank thru the
return port. This allows you not only the ability to pick where you want to
store the water, but also keep it isolated from any other potable water on
the boat.

Will have a tankless, propane fired hot water heater.

I don't know about you, but I hate jumping into a cold shower and wait for
it to get warm.

I also don't want to waste valuable potable water waiting for it to get
warm.

Solution:

A ball valve connected from the output of the hot water coming into the
shower to the potable water return line.

Open the valve for maybe a minute and the cold shower problem is solved.

Use the same technique at every other hot water consuming source.

Much of what is outlined above is also applicable to salt (raw) water
systems as well as fuel systems.

BTW, standard 1/2" copper water pipe is 5/8" OD, and fits 5/8" ID potable
water hose quite nicely.

I constructed the various manifolds using soldered copper water pipe and
fittings along with using double hose clamps at each hose termination. (Have
also used the same idea for the diesel fuel system)

At last count, had used over 100 hose clamps and about 40, 1/2" bronze ball
valves.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

Thanks for the question -- it's given me a chance to put a variety of
thoughts on paper, as we're still designing the plumbing for Fintry.

Thoughts, in no particular order:

1) Assuming your tanks are below the cabin sole, put the tank vents
together so they run into the galley sink. This protects them from
salt and lets one watcher see instantly when one is full. This need
not be obtrusive, just a little set of upside down "J"s above the
level of the counter -- not below, as it could siphon back.

2) Run one deck fill into a manifold (but see #3).
(deckfill) (shutoff) (draw to pumps) (manifold with one valve
for each tank)
This allows you to fill all the tanks at once. You can pipe the
watermaker into the (draw from pumps) space as well.

3) We had a watermaker (separate subject) and therefore never took
water where it might be marginal (In three years we took it only in
USA, Papeete, New Zealand, Singapore, and the Med). The watermaker
likes to run, so use it. Without a watermaker, plan on taking
marginal water. Perhaps separate deck fills, perhaps separate systems
below for showers and drinking, etc. There are a lot of places where
you can get water that is fine for washing but marginal for drinking,
some of them surprising -- the Health Officer for the Darwin-Ambon
Race advised us all not to use Darwin water -- significant risk of
Giardia.

4) I think Glenn's double clamping is overkill -- double clamp
seawater lines -- they can sink your boat -- but the worst case on a
freshwater line is that the pump empties one tank. Clamp failures are
very rare.

5) Put a foot pump in line with the galley cold water line for the
times when the pressure system is down. If you don't have a
watermaker, put one at every cold water faucet and turn off the
pressure when consumption is an issue. The foot pump can draw right
through a diaphragm pressure pump and vice versa.

6) Put a hot and cold hose in the cockpit.

7) If you'll spend a lot of time at a dock in non-freezing weather,
put in a pressure regulator and shore hose connection.

8) I like the Jabsco diaphragm pumps -- they're simple, parts are
replaceable, and the same frame and motor is available as a bilge and
shower sump pump, allowing you to carry fewer spares (the bilge pump
is geared for low pressure, high volume, the water pump for high/low).
Their pressure switches are problematic, however. IIRC they are
Microswitches with a DC rating of around 1/2A, while the pump draws
3-6A (depends on voltage). You can pipe in a better switch if you
want to pay for it, or buy lots of spares (IIRC a six month life in
liveaboard use). Note that the switch is available by itself for less
than US$10 or as the assembly for much more.

9) I think Glenn is overkilling with two pumps, both on line all the
time. I'd prefer two pumps with two way valves on both sides so you
can manually switch them over. I like to know when things fail, which
you might not with Glenn's arrangement.

10) Schedule 80 PVC (gray) is essentially bullet proof and a lot
cheaper than metal. You might even use Scd 40 (white) if it's
protected from feet and other ugly things. Neither are permitted for
hot water ashore and if you use engine heat for hot water it will be
hotter than shore water, so use CPVC for hot (I've never seen Schedule
80 CPVC and Dogpile gives no results for a search).

11) I'm not sure I like an LPG water heater. Safety issues are real.
It's fairly easy to enforce turning the LPG supply on and off for the
galley stove, but an on-demand water heater would require more
discipline. Also, in many places, diesel is easy to get and LPG is a
PITA. On Swee****er we had an electric tank heater with two coils, so
running either the engine or the genset heated water (I hated the
thought of running the genset and using most of its electrical output
to heat water). If you don't have a genset, though, you have limited
choices when shore power isn't available. Run the main to heat
water????

12) Without a watermaker, Lew's hot-water-runs-back-to-the-tank system
makes a lot of sense.

13) On Swee****er in the tropics, from Panama to Fiji, three of us
used 15 gallons of water a day with daily showers. Enough, but not
profligate, was the attitude. For two weeks in the Societies, with
four guests (including two long blonde hair teenagers) consumption
went up to 75 gallons per day with a lot of swimming, diving, etc.

14) Put a filter before the pump. Pumps don't like the sand in some
shore water.

15) When a tank runs dry and you need to switch tanks, it's helpful if
you have a valve teed into the pump discharge that runs into an open
sump or the bilge -- it makes it much easier for the pump to get its
prime from the new tank if it's running against zero back pressure.
(Switch tanks, open valve, run pump, pump primes, close valve).
Without this, the pump is working against all the air in the system
including the accumulator and takes much longer to prime.

16) Use single outlet faucets throughout. If you use engine heat to
heat water, it will be much hotter (up to 205F) than people are
accustomed to ashore. You might even put in a thermostatic mixer
downstream from the hot water tank to reduce the temperature. These
are standard on domestic tankless boiler systems, so you'll find one
at Home Depot.

17) If you have a watermaker, pay attention to the fact that many of
them do not like chlorine -- you need to be able to backflush the unit
with its own output that has not been contaminated by shore water
(there are several ways around this, including simply waiting, but you
have to pay attention).

18) If you're going to winter in cold climates, don't run water lines
against the hull above the waterline.

19) If the boat will spend the winter on the hard, make winterizing
easy.

20) Put a port in the top of each tank above the deepest point, so you
can use a calibrated stick. Keep track of consumption.

21) On smaller boats, consider using a header tank for pressure and
pumping it up once a day. We had this on Clarissa Carver, a 40'
schooner, where the tank was just under the main deck. Pressure was
modest but usable and it avoided all the nuisance of freshwater pumps,
particularly the pressure switch. Fintry also has this system now (55
gallons on the upper deck) and I'm considering modifying it for future
use.

22) Arrange your system so that if the working tank runs dry from a
leak and the watermaker fails that you always have enough water left
to provide a gallon per person per day for the longest contemplated
passage. You can live on less, of course, but you won't like it.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com



(Aluminumhullsailor) wrote in message . com...
Listers,

I have been working on a fresh water system to install on a 45 foot
cruising monohull sailboat. Does anyone know of any online schematics
or idea lists that may provide me with another line of thought? Any
books you have found helpful would be a good tip also? I will post my
schematic in a few days for comments.

D

Glenn

At one time most new construction in the DFW metroplex had Quest from the
water meter to the house. After almost total failure there was a very big
lawsuit. Rest assured things have changed.

That was back in the eighties so maybe Quest is better now. But then again,
maybe you did a good thing and didn't know it.

Fred



"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...
....
My entire system is double clamped hose. If I had it to do over again I
would have seriously looked at Quest. Teeing in a branch line to a sink
or shower takes 16 marine grade hose clamps and that gets mighty
expensive.

....

300 gals of water! 12! diesel tanks! Damn! Maybe I mispoke in another
thread when I made the comment CVN discussion threads don't apply in this
news group :-)

Well, Glenn, unfortunately I learned a long time ago, no matter what,
someone will always have a bigger one than mine or yours ;-)

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...
Aluminumhullsailor writes:

I have been working on a fresh water system to install on a 45 foot
cruising monohull sailboat. Does anyone know of any online schematics
or idea lists that may provide me with another line of thought? Any
books you have found helpful would be a good tip also? I will post my
schematic in a few days for comments.

I have six (6) built in potable water tanks, three (3) on each side, each
with about a 50 gallon capacity on the boat I'm building.

Before you ask, NO, I do not plan on having 300 gallons of potable water
on
board.

This was done for two (2) reasons.

All tanks are below the sole and had the space not been developed as
tankage, it would have remained as undeveloped space under the sole that
would collect who knows what, and sooner or later get contaminated with
bilge water. Building tanks eliminated this problem.

That fact that there are equal tanks on both starboard and port allows the
potable water to be used as liquid ballast. (BTW, also did this with
twelve
(12) diesel tanks)
....

leisure wrote:
Have you ever been cruising or do you just like ****ing away money or
stupid over-engineered designs ?? Just curious.

About twice a year for the past eight years I crew on deliveries of new
boats to the Caribbean charter operations and bring old burned out ones
back. I am asked along because I am fairly mechanically minded and
don't get seasick with my head in the bilge. (Also I work for food.)

I know just about everything that can go wrong mechanically with new and
old boats and what I don't want to go wrong with mine. Carefull
engineering, redundancies and manual overrides are the best way to avoid
teaching the rest of the crew a few new four letter words.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Speaking of vents::

If your going to combine any vent lines, be sure you they won't create a
syphon between port and stbd tanks while healed over.

What I did to over come this problem, was to locate each vent fitting at the
outboard edge of the tank top. That way the higher tank will always have the
vent fitting in the resulting air pocket while, even though the low tank
vent might have water up to it, the opposite tank will still be higher due
to the boats heal angle. This wouldn't work if the vents were vented at or
near the centerline.

All of my tanks are at a equal tank top height, fore and aft, port and stbd
while the boat is on an even keel.

I run my combine water vent to the shower stall.

Another feature, I'm working on. The water heater is in the engine
compartment, about 20 ft from the head and shower. I am putting a valve in
the hot water line, near the head sink, that will divert this water back to
the freshwater manifold until hot water is up to the fixture. This may seem
'anal' but it will save a lot of wasted water while waiting for the warm
stuff.

However, speaking of combine vent:: I did end up with a problem of cross
over between my holding tank and my gray water tank. They share the same
vent and even though they are tee'd to gather about 3 ft above the tanks,
when ever the holding tank is full (I don't have gage) the liquid flows over
into the gray water tank. Eventually I will discover the problem when the
gray water backs up into the ice box drain. YuK.

Well, that's my take and experience on the tank plumbing situation.
Live(aboard) and learn from your mistakes. FWIW.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Steve wrote:
Speaking of vents::
However, speaking of combine vent:: I did end up with a problem of cross
over between my holding tank and my gray water tank. They share the same
vent and even though they are tee'd to gather about 3 ft above the tanks,
when ever the holding tank is full (I don't have gage) the liquid flows over
into the gray water tank. Eventually I will discover the problem when the
gray water backs up into the ice box drain. YuK.

You're gonna have worse problems than that, Steve. Waste contains animal
fats and other stuff that's building up in your vent. It's prob'ly
already reduced the diameter at the tank fitting and tee considerably,
and will completely block the vent. But you won't know it till both your
waste and gray water tanks either become pressurized or you can't dump
'em at sea because of the vacuum...or worse yet, a strong pumpout cracks
one or both 'em.

I'm surprised you can tolerate the odor that has to come out the vent
each time the head is flushed or anything goes down a drain.

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Fred Williams" writes:

300 gals of water! 12! diesel tanks! Damn! Maybe I mispoke in another
thread when I made the comment CVN discussion threads don't apply in this
news group :-)

Well, Glenn, unfortunately I learned a long time ago, no matter what,
someone will always have a bigger one than mine or yours ;-)


I have included my previous post below so you can read it again.

Yes there are 12 fuel tanks that COULD hold a total of about 700 gallons of
fuel and 6 potable water tanks that COULD hold about 300 gallons.

The operative word is COULD.

The boat is an AIREX cored hull with knitted glass and epoxy skins.

The tanks are built integral to the hull and have a hose distribution matrix
such that the contents of any tank can be pumped to any other like contents
tank.

Since 700 gallons of diesel isn't enough to get you across an ocean with out
sailing at least half the time and 300 gallons of water is more than any 2
person crew will ever need, especially with a watermaker, the question
becomes, "Why so many tanks?"

That many tanks provide the following:

1) Developed space that is not open to the bilge thus eliminating a lot of
"housekeeping" problems.

2) By keeping at least half the tanks empty, you have "liquid" ballast that
can always be pumped to the high side on a long passage.

3) Increased flotation. Building all those tanks basicially divides the
interior volume into small confined spaces.

In the event the hull is holed below the water line, the damage is
effectively confined to one or maybe two tanks and can be quickly sealed off
from the rest of the vessel.

HTH



I personally think it shows a lot of thought on your part. That's one
of the things that americans are famous for, creativity. I am also
working on a plan for about 300 gals. of water storage. I plan on being
able to route cockpit rain water either overboard or into storage tanks
to be used for showers, dishwashing, clothes washing, or whatever,
except for drinking. Drinking water will be contained in a smaller tank
and will come from a water maker, which could also be directed to the
other tanks in case the level gets too low. So far it's only a plan,
but I'm giving it a lot of thought.

Donald

--
I'm building a Steel Robert's 434. You can sneak a peek if you wish by
clicking on me link below.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/donrayp/
'USA, Home of the best
politicians money can buy'