This inquiry has been cross-posted to rec.boats.cruising;
rec.boats.building; and rec.boats.electronics since it seems to cover
all three areas and I am hoping to tap the widest range of experts.
If you have responded to one thread, no need to respond in the other
news groups (though, of course, you are welcome to do so).

I recently read an article in Practical Sailor about navigation
lights. It reminded me about the red over green masthead light that
is optional for sailboats. I have never seen this option used but
have wondered if it actually might be a good idea to explore.

When I am sailing or motoring at night, I enjoy trying to identify the
types of vessels engaged in various activities from the navigation
lights that are displayed. Currently I have been boating in the
eastern North Carolina area. The green over white lights of the
fishing trawlers are pretty common and also quite useful to warn you
to stay clear of their operations.

As you know, for sailboats under sails alone the regulations call for
(with regard to my 43 foot cutter/ketch) a combination port/starboard
light at the bow (or separate sidelights) and a stern light or a
tri-colored light at the peak of the mast. In other words the
configuration for power boats but without the white masthead light
showing forward. From my experience the lack of a masthead light is a
distinction that is rather subtle and could be overlooked in traffic
or poor visibility. This has led me to reconsider the value of the
red over green mast light that is an option for sailboats under sail
alone. It is so distinct that even the most casual observer would
immediately recognize that the vessel was a sailboat.

First questions are whether you have ever seen the optional red over
green lights used? Was it as distinctive as I assume that it would
be? What size vessel did you see it on? What is your opinion about
the usefulness of this option?

The second set of questions have more to do with the electronics and
building news groups. I seem to remember reading somewhere that
lights in a vertical stack should (or have to) be separated by one
meter. Since the red over green lights would be entirely optional,
you probably could get away with less separation but there probably is
a minimum separation to keep the lights from appearing to merge when
sighted at a distance. Anybody have any opinion on what the minimum
distance would have to be so that the lights would appear as separate
lights at say 2 nautical miles? The distance apart also complicates
the installation. One idea I had was to hoist two lanterns up to a
block on an upper spreader. The lanterns could be powered by their
own batteries or I could run wires down to an outlet on the deck.
What do you think of this possible arrangement? It would not be at
the peak of the mast and would be blocked from vision from one side of
the boat at times by the mast. But, it would have the advantage of
being removable and repairable easily. Such an arrangement could also
be used for displaying red over red or red/white/red when those
signals might be necessary.

Since I already have a tri-color light at the peak of my mainmast, any
permanent extension above the peak would interfere with the visibility
of the tri-color (and its anchor light) when I chose to use it. Since
I have a mizzen mast, I have considered building an extension for the
peak of that mast. The added advantage of this arrangement is that it
would not increase the overall height of my rig for purposes of
vertical clearance. But even with some kind of extension, how do I
keep the pole or extension itself from blocking the light from certain
angles? Well, experts, what do you think of all this? Of course,
would be a lot of work to design and install such an arrangement. But
if it kept me from getting run down just once, it would be well worth
the effort. Or, on the other hand, have I just lost my mind? :-)

Thanks in advance for your advice and help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
43 foot seel hulled, center cockpit, raised poop, cutter/ketch

Lee:

Take a good look at the Colregs, which answer most of your questions
-- you do have a copy of the Colregs, don't you? They're required
aboard boats longer than 12 meters.

Rules below are paraphrases...

Annex 1, 2.(i)(ii) one meter vertical separation on vessels less than
20 meters long

Annex 1, 9.(b) all around lights must not be obscured more than 6
degrees
(as a practical matter this requires two lights, one on each side of
the mast, unless the mast is very skinny -- distance away from mast
needs to be roughly 10 times the diameter of the mast.)

Rule 25(c) at or near the top of the mast and may not be used with a
tricolor (nothing here about two masts)

Rule 25 says to me a) you can't hoist them from a spreader and b) you
probably can't put them on the mizzen.

Now, with the rules out of the way, some thoughts....

They came on Swee****er (Swan 57) when we bought her. We were in a
marina in downtown Boston and an old man came along, said he was a
retired USCG CPO, and challenged the lights -- said they were illegal.
I got the Colregs, he read them and apologized, saying that he had
never seen them. So much, I am afraid, for your "most casual
observer". I've never actually seen them in use, although I have seen
them installed on a few large vessels (that includes about 40,000
miles at sea).

We took them off, before our circumnav, figuring that they would
confuse rather than enlighten.

At sea, the tricolor is your best bet -- it's on top of the mast and
can be seen at a distance -- I'd much rather have it than a red over
green and red/green and stern at deck level.

In close quarters, particularly in rivers or crowded harbors, masthead
lights are too high -- many observers will miss them -- so we ran with
the lower lights on.

If you're really concerned about being seen, I would turn on the
steaming light and act like a power vessel. (Run the engine if you're
really worried.)

I question the wisdom of installing optional lights and, because
they're optional, not installing them in accordance with the rules. I
suspect that if you had an accident, the other side would use that
against you, "Your honor, I was confused by the lights because they
were hsowing red and green and they were too close together and....."

Because the green would be a meter below your masthead, it will show
up on the job, which is always a nuisance.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com


(Lee Huddleston) wrote in message . ..
This inquiry has been cross-posted to rec.boats.cruising;
rec.boats.building; and rec.boats.electronics since it seems to cover
all three areas and I am hoping to tap the widest range of experts.
If you have responded to one thread, no need to respond in the other
news groups (though, of course, you are welcome to do so).

I recently read an article in Practical Sailor about navigation
lights. It reminded me about the red over green masthead light that
is optional for sailboats. I have never seen this option used but
have wondered if it actually might be a good idea to explore.

When I am sailing or motoring at night, I enjoy trying to identify the
types of vessels engaged in various activities from the navigation
lights that are displayed. Currently I have been boating in the
eastern North Carolina area. The green over white lights of the
fishing trawlers are pretty common and also quite useful to warn you
to stay clear of their operations.

As you know, for sailboats under sails alone the regulations call for
(with regard to my 43 foot cutter/ketch) a combination port/starboard
light at the bow (or separate sidelights) and a stern light or a
tri-colored light at the peak of the mast. In other words the
configuration for power boats but without the white masthead light
showing forward. From my experience the lack of a masthead light is a
distinction that is rather subtle and could be overlooked in traffic
or poor visibility. This has led me to reconsider the value of the
red over green mast light that is an option for sailboats under sail
alone. It is so distinct that even the most casual observer would
immediately recognize that the vessel was a sailboat.

First questions are whether you have ever seen the optional red over
green lights used? Was it as distinctive as I assume that it would
be? What size vessel did you see it on? What is your opinion about
the usefulness of this option?

The second set of questions have more to do with the electronics and
building news groups. I seem to remember reading somewhere that
lights in a vertical stack should (or have to) be separated by one
meter. Since the red over green lights would be entirely optional,
you probably could get away with less separation but there probably is
a minimum separation to keep the lights from appearing to merge when
sighted at a distance. Anybody have any opinion on what the minimum
distance would have to be so that the lights would appear as separate
lights at say 2 nautical miles? The distance apart also complicates
the installation. One idea I had was to hoist two lanterns up to a
block on an upper spreader. The lanterns could be powered by their
own batteries or I could run wires down to an outlet on the deck.
What do you think of this possible arrangement? It would not be at
the peak of the mast and would be blocked from vision from one side of
the boat at times by the mast. But, it would have the advantage of
being removable and repairable easily. Such an arrangement could also
be used for displaying red over red or red/white/red when those
signals might be necessary.

Since I already have a tri-color light at the peak of my mainmast, any
permanent extension above the peak would interfere with the visibility
of the tri-color (and its anchor light) when I chose to use it. Since
I have a mizzen mast, I have considered building an extension for the
peak of that mast. The added advantage of this arrangement is that it
would not increase the overall height of my rig for purposes of
vertical clearance. But even with some kind of extension, how do I
keep the pole or extension itself from blocking the light from certain
angles? Well, experts, what do you think of all this? Of course,
would be a lot of work to design and install such an arrangement. But
if it kept me from getting run down just once, it would be well worth
the effort. Or, on the other hand, have I just lost my mind? :-)

Thanks in advance for your advice and help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
43 foot seel hulled, center cockpit, raised poop, cutter/ketch

Take a good look at the Colregs, which answer most of your questions
-- you do have a copy of the Colregs, don't you? They're required
aboard boats longer than 12 meters.

Big Grin Not only do I have several copies of the Colregs, I have
practically memorized them and can tell you where they differ from the
Inland Rules and the special rules for Western Rivers. Obviously a
lot more time dreaming about sailing than really sailing recently. :-)

Rules below are paraphrases...

Annex 1, 2.(i)(ii) one meter vertical separation on vessels less than
20 meters long

Annex 1, 9.(b) all around lights must not be obscured more than 6
degrees
(as a practical matter this requires two lights, one on each side of
the mast, unless the mast is very skinny -- distance away from mast
needs to be roughly 10 times the diameter of the mast.)

Is your "10 times the diameter" a calculated figure or a general
estimate? If it is a calculated figure and we assume that the light
is a point source, this would mean that a light on a one-inch diameter
extension would still have to be 10 inches away from the extension.
Having seen many green over white lights on fishing boats around here,
they do not seem to comply with this. The all-round lights seem to be
only about six inches from rather substantial masts.

As for using two lights, one on each side of a large mast, wouldn't
that cause even more confusion? Or would they merge visually from a
distance?

Rule 25(c) at or near the top of the mast and may not be used with a
tricolor (nothing here about two masts)

Rule 25 says to me a) you can't hoist them from a spreader and b) you
probably can't put them on the mizzen.

Your point is well taken on this. The wording of the regs does
indicate the peak of the mast which would imply the highest point. I
may have to do some in-depth research on this question. The mizzen
arrangement would be easier, but may not be legal.

Now, with the rules out of the way, some thoughts....

They came on Swee****er (Swan 57) when we bought her. We were in a
marina in downtown Boston and an old man came along, said he was a
retired USCG CPO, and challenged the lights -- said they were illegal.
I got the Colregs, he read them and apologized, saying that he had
never seen them. So much, I am afraid, for your "most casual
observer". I've never actually seen them in use, although I have seen
them installed on a few large vessels (that includes about 40,000
miles at sea).

We took them off, before our circumnav, figuring that they would
confuse rather than enlighten.

I am really surprised that you went to the trouble of taking them off.
When you say that the lights might confuse more than enlighten, I
think about who I am trying to inform - skippers of larger commercial
vessels primarily. They are the ones who can hurt me the most. I
have to assume that they will be familiar with the Colregs and know
what the lights mean. But, even for the most ill informed
recreational boater, the lights would at least communicate that there
is something different out there that they need to pay attention to.
I am not as concerned that a small boat skipper will immediately know
what my vessel is from the lights as I am concerned that I get his/her
attention.

Since your sailboat was equipped with red over green lights, how were
they designed and installed? Were they two lights for each color on
opposite sides of the mast? Or where they all-round lights on a
separate stalk above the peak of the mast. Since your vessel was a
Swan 57, I feel that I can assume that the installation was well
engineered and executed and completely legal.

At sea, the tricolor is your best bet -- it's on top of the mast and
can be seen at a distance -- I'd much rather have it than a red over
green and red/green and stern at deck level.

I certainly agree that on the ocean the tricolor is better than the
lights on or near the deck. But think about what a freighter captain
would see. If he sees a red light about all he knows is that some
kind of vessel is out there. He probably can safely assume that he is
looking at the starboard side of a vessel. IF he assumes that the
sighted vessel has all its proper lights working, he might correctly
conclude that it is a sailboat under sail to which he must give way.
But, of course, a single red light could be a lot of other things if
we assume that the vessel's lights are NOT all working properly.

If, on the other hand, the freighter captain sees a red light over a
green light off in the distance, he knows that the vessel can only be
one thing, a sailboat under sail. There is not another series of
lights, even with some of the lights not working, that could give that
combination (other than a sailboat on its side G). Also, two lights
of different colors increases the chances of at least one of them
being seen.

In close quarters, particularly in rivers or crowded harbors, masthead
lights are too high -- many observers will miss them -- so we ran with
the lower lights on.

I certainly agree with this and almost got run down on an inland lake
once when I was using a tricolor light on an O'Day 25. A pontoon boat
had a canopy that blocked the skipper's vision of my tricolor.

If you're really concerned about being seen, I would turn on the
steaming light and act like a power vessel. (Run the engine if you're
really worried.)

First of all, turning on the steaming (masthead) light while
proceeding under sail alone would not be legal. If I got into a
situation where I was unable to maneuver I would be held liable. So,
I either have to forget about being a sailboat and run the engine all
the time as you suggest, or I have to turn on the best combination of
legal lights to fit the occasion - deck-level lights for close
quarters or mast peak lights for ocean.

I question the wisdom of installing optional lights and, because
they're optional, not installing them in accordance with the rules. I
suspect that if you had an accident, the other side would use that
against you, "Your honor, I was confused by the lights because they
were hsowing red and green and they were too close together and....."

On reflection, you are right. If I am going to install such lights, I
need to do so in strict compliance with the regs.

Because the green would be a meter below your masthead, it will show
up on the job, which is always a nuisance.

Except that by shining into the jib it might be even more visible.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove

(Lee Huddleston) wrote in message . ..
SNIP

Big Grin Not only do I have several copies of the Colregs, I have
practically memorized them and can tell you where they differ from the
Inland Rules and the special rules for Western Rivers. Obviously a
lot more time dreaming about sailing than really sailing recently. :-)

A man after my own heart. Mine are highlighted for the differences.
BTW the vertical separation of lights is one of the differences over
20 meters LOA.

snip

the mast, unless the mast is very skinny -- distance away from mast
needs to be roughly 10 times the diameter of the mast.)

Is your "10 times the diameter" a calculated figure or a general
estimate? If it is a calculated figure and we assume that the light
is a point source, this would mean that a light on a one-inch diameter
extension would still have to be 10 inches away from the extension.
Having seen many green over white lights on fishing boats around here,
they do not seem to comply with this. The all-round lights seem to be
only about six inches from rather substantial masts.

Rule is six degrees of obstruction
six degrees is about one tenth radian (6/57)
for small angles, tangent is approximately equal to angle in radians
so tangent six degrees is about 1/10 (actually 0.105)
therefore obstruction X inches wide will subtend six degrees at 10X
distance.
(Amazing, high school geometry was 40 years ago and I use it rarely --
maybe I'm even right ;-)

You see many workboats with three steaming lights and two NUCs, the
NUCs on stalks extending a meter or so from the mast.

As for using two lights, one on each side of a large mast, wouldn't
that cause even more confusion? Or would they merge visually from a
distance?

Someplace, can't find it, I saw a reference to what you do, They'll
merge at a distance, and, of course, you could use 180 degree shields.

snip

I am really surprised that you went to the trouble of taking them off.

We did a major refit -- replaced everything electrical, as electrics
were Nautor's one weakness and the chaos had had a lot of help from
1982 to 1994 when we bought her.

When you say that the lights might confuse more than enlighten, I
think about who I am trying to inform - skippers of larger commercial
vessels primarily. They are the ones who can hurt me the most. I
have to assume that they will be familiar with the Colregs and know
what the lights mean. But, even for the most ill informed
recreational boater, the lights would at least communicate that there
is something different out there that they need to pay attention to.
I am not as concerned that a small boat skipper will immediately know
what my vessel is from the lights as I am concerned that I get his/her
attention.

I don't think my Coastie was an isolated example...

I'm not as trusting in the large boat crew as you are -- if they're
good, they don't need the red/green, because they've already got me on
radar; if they're not good, who knows what they know?

I depend on seeing the other guy first. I remind my crews that there
is no way a large vessel could run you down if it tried to do so --
you're too maneuverable. Small boats that get hit are mostly either
not paying attention, fail to understand how fast the other guy is
moving, or have gotten nailed by bad visibility where more lights
wouldn't help. (I should add that this sounds very judgmental and
callous, and there are exceptions, but in good visibility -- which is
where lights matter -- the small guy should be OK).

Since your sailboat was equipped with red over green lights, how were
they designed and installed? Were they two lights for each color on
opposite sides of the mast? Or where they all-round lights on a
separate stalk above the peak of the mast. Since your vessel was a
Swan 57, I feel that I can assume that the installation was well
engineered and executed and completely legal.

There were two red and two green on opposite sides of the mast, near
the top. This was nine years ago, so I'm not sure, but think they
were all 360 degree lights, about a meter apart, and close to the
mast.

Fintry has NUC lights (see
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/plymouth800.jpg) that are set up in the
same way, but a little farther from the stick -- the two pairs below
the spreaders in the photo. They were put on her for the Royal Navy in
order to meet the MCA rules, so someone surveyed her and pronounced
them, "OK". Same rule should apply for Rule 27(a) and Rule 25(c).

snip
I certainly agree that on the ocean the tricolor is better than the
lights on or near the deck. But think about what a freighter captain
would see. If he sees a red light about all he knows is that some
kind of vessel is out there. He probably can safely assume that he is
looking at the starboard side of a vessel. IF he assumes that the
sighted vessel has all its proper lights working, he might correctly
conclude that it is a sailboat under sail to which he must give way.
But, of course, a single red light could be a lot of other things if
we assume that the vessel's lights are NOT all working properly.

I'm really surprised that almost no yachts have alarms on their lights
that go off when one stops working. It's easy to do and almost every
working vessel we looked at in our search for Fintry had them -- most
had dual lights, too.


If, on the other hand, the freighter captain sees a red light over a
green light off in the distance, he knows that the vessel can only be
one thing, a sailboat under sail. There is not another series of
lights, even with some of the lights not working, that could give that
combination (other than a sailboat on its side G). Also, two lights
of different colors increases the chances of at least one of them
being seen.

Yes, but suppose he sees only the green, and fails to see the stern or
red running light below?


In close quarters, particularly in rivers or crowded harbors, masthead
lights are too high -- many observers will miss them -- so we ran with
the lower lights on.

I certainly agree with this and almost got run down on an inland lake
once when I was using a tricolor light on an O'Day 25. A pontoon boat
had a canopy that blocked the skipper's vision of my tricolor.

If you're really concerned about being seen, I would turn on the
steaming light and act like a power vessel. (Run the engine if you're
really worried.)

First of all, turning on the steaming (masthead) light while
proceeding under sail alone would not be legal. If I got into a
situation where I was unable to maneuver I would be held liable.

You're probably right.


snip

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove

Isn't that what this is all about -- learning from each other?

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Hmmm. I wonder if we will ever see approved all around red and green
LED lights?

I ask because these are not yacht applications (except red over green,
which we agree is a very small market) -- they are almost entirely
commercial and military (red for NUCs and fishing, green for fishing
and mine-clearance). Almost all fishboats and most smaller commercial
boats squeeze a penny until Abe screams -- for example, I regularly
saw home circuit breaker panels on them while we were looking for
Fintry. I can't see them buying expensive wrap-around LED lights when
two ordinary 360 degree lights on opposite sides of the mast do the
job both legally and practically. Only yachties are concerned about
power consumption -- the working guys typically run a genset 24/7 when
away from shore power.

Further to our earlier discussion, I note that the latest version of
the Colregs (which this thread forced me to buy, thank you), Annex I
9(b)(ii) explicitly allows using two lights when needed under both
Rules. There is a note on the Inland page that two lights 1.28 meters
apart will show as one light at one nautical mile.

I wonder where they got this? A web search came up with the standard
that normal vision will resolve two sources that subtend one arc
minute. That would be a separation of 0.54 meters at a mile (1852
meters).

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

(Lee Huddleston) wrote in message . ..
Jim,

Thanks for your responses. The consensus is pretty much what you
said, don't trust anyone including "professionally" manned ships to
pay any attention to your lights or even your existence. But, some
will notice and try hard to avoid you or give you your rights.
Therefore, it is worth trying to be more visible while at the same
time knowing that you have to be very diligent to stay out of other's
way.

As you indicated, the Annex to the regs provides for lights of the
same color on each side of the mast that appear to merge into one at
the distance of a mile.

The better solution, however, is now becoming LEDs. They can be built
in a ring around a central stalk or pole and thus be 360 degrees with
no blockage. There are none available commercially yet because the
process of approval from the Coast Guard takes a considerable amount
of time.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove