I'm about to start learning in " MacNaughton Yacht Design School "
can you give me some information to help me decide taking it or not
thanks
dan

I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the
boat industry. That not only holds a lot of weight in industry, but also in
courts should you face legal action. MacNaughton is more for the self-run
shop or custom design kind of guy while these others are more for those that
want to work in the rest of the industry. Don't let that $50 entry fee
entice you in until you've decided exactly what you're going to do with your
life and career.

Note also that there is ongoing pressure from feds and states to require a
Professional Engineer (PE) license. That would require a degree in
engineering, passing the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) test, putting in 4
years of experience, then taking the PE. It requires a bunch of
recommendation letters and appropriate training and experience. This is
normal for engineers if they want to do consulting or have their work
insured or bonded. HOWEVER, the boat design/manufacturing industry is
strongly against this move. A very significant portion of the boat
companies would not be able to do business legally if all this comes to
pass. Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.
If you want to play the safest bet, then go to school and get a degree in
mechanical engineering followed by a highly respected yacht design
school -or- get a degree in naval architecture (U. of Mich. etc). Follow
this by taking the FE, putting in some time, joining SNAME and taking their
PE preparation training, then getting your naval architecture PE.

My personal bet is that all this will become necessary before too long.
Why? Litigation. Lawsuits. Due diligence. I think the naval
architecture/boat industry is going to be led down this track by a nose
ring. Just my 2-bits. It's happened to all other technically based
industries already ...

Good luck. If you're serious, then do it seriously.

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Dany" wrote in message
...
I'm about to start learning in " MacNaughton Yacht Design School "
can you give me some information to help me decide taking it or not
thanks
dan

"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required) and
'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys get
all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell there's
pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put a
Grey Davis TAX on it too.

Brian


"Michael Porter" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the
American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in
the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

I have a Bsc in mechanical eng and I wanted to learn more about small craft
design
(not only yachts) the price diefference between westlawn and MacNaughton
is very big that the reason I wanted to get some more information about
MacNaughton.
thanks
dan

"Michael Porter" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the
American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in
the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

While I agree that a background in engineering is a must to design yachts,
the PE requirement is completely stupid.
A PE license does not show that you are able to design boats. In addition to
a good engineering base, a yacht designer must qualify in two other fields:
extensive experience at sea and experience in boat building.
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.
The licensing requirement would have very negative effects on yacht design,
on new designs availabilty and price, on boats prices and on boating in
general.
Most of the people who design boats today, while very able, do not have a
PE. They may be mechanical engineers, architects or as in my case, have
degrees in chemistry and physics. Some may just be autodidacts and there is
nothing wrong with that.
The requirements of today's designs make the selection automatic: you will
not get a job as a yacht designer if you can not do your basic calculations.
The reason for that licensing requirement was the move of many US ship
building activities to other parts of the world. Large ship naval architects
were looking for work and discovered yacht design. A licensing requirement
would have them "supervise" the work of real yacht designers but the PE's
would charge for their stamp of approval thereby increasing the costs of
designing new boats and almost certainly killing creativity. They just want
their cut . . .
I have no immediate concerns because I don't design large yachts but
tomorrow, the requirement may extend to the type of boat I design, less than
65'.

I became a member of the SNAME at a time when membership required two senior
fellows a sponsors. That was a sufficient guarantee of expertise: work a few
years for another designer and then for a yacht manufacturer and they'll
decide waht you are worth.
An exam during which I would have to calculate the efficiency of a steam
engine will not prove that I am able to design a yacht.
No school or diploma will ever give you all what is needed to become a good
yacht designer. To take a beating in a mean storm and hands on boat building
experience are absolutely necessary but not taught in schools.
If one day I need the help of a PE, I will ask for it. I worked with an
excellent one at James Krogen. I don't think that I would get a commission
to design a larger yacht without setting up such a collaboration but let's
not make it a blanket requirement. It would kill our profession.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Agfb.670589$Ho3.141187@sccrnsc03...
Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required)
and
'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys
get
all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell
there's
pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put a
Grey Davis TAX on it too.

Brian


"Michael Porter" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and
Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the
American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in
the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

Hi

"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse
.. .

Snip
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.

But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a
bit math.

P.C.

I think the price difference probably accurately reflects the difference in
industry acceptance. Just my guess. Westlawn is accredited too. But it
sounds like you're in great position to make the best of it. Are you
thinking of doing design as a career? Or for personal interest or lighter
weight efforts...if you're not trying to sell your resume to the big names,
then MacNaughton would probably do.

Brian

"Dany" wrote in message
...
I have a Bsc in mechanical eng and I wanted to learn more about small
craft
design
(not only yachts) the price diefference between westlawn and MacNaughton
is very big that the reason I wanted to get some more information about
MacNaughton.
thanks
dan

"Michael Porter" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and
Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the
American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in
the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

I hear what you're saying, and most of what you say is why the process of
making the PE required will be slow. But in spite of those make-sense
economics, several states have already done it, including the State of
Washington, where they have a very large boat design and manufacturing
industry. Precedents like these will make the PE trend tough to fight. So
will litigation against boat designers and the companies that manufacture
the boats. Liability insurance is not bad now, usually low cost and based
on last year's sales, but if the boat industry follows in the tracks of
others in this country, then that insurance will grow too expensive and
licensing will become required in order to obtain it. Write it down and
watch. None of us like it and most of us would disagree with the trend
....until you get your own PE and then you have the advantage that is.

As far as the issue of experience goes, I have to agree...I've watched
businesses go out of business when run by some MIT MBA with no real-life
experience while others that are run by people that worked their way up
through the ranks thrive. Experience is not something you can buy. In the
mean time, I would still encourage those interested in the yacht design
career path to pursue a PE license, even if not yet required for small
craft. A side benefit to such an individual is that he or she will have
more choice about what direction their career takes. Small craft
design/sales is not high income, but expensive or high-end custom work can
pay better. May as well line up your credentials and start earning
experience.

Brian


"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message
.. .
While I agree that a background in engineering is a must to design yachts,
the PE requirement is completely stupid.
A PE license does not show that you are able to design boats. In addition
to
a good engineering base, a yacht designer must qualify in two other
fields:
extensive experience at sea and experience in boat building.
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.
The licensing requirement would have very negative effects on yacht
design,
on new designs availabilty and price, on boats prices and on boating in
general.
Most of the people who design boats today, while very able, do not have a
PE. They may be mechanical engineers, architects or as in my case, have
degrees in chemistry and physics. Some may just be autodidacts and there
is
nothing wrong with that.
The requirements of today's designs make the selection automatic: you will
not get a job as a yacht designer if you can not do your basic
calculations.
The reason for that licensing requirement was the move of many US ship
building activities to other parts of the world. Large ship naval
architects
were looking for work and discovered yacht design. A licensing requirement
would have them "supervise" the work of real yacht designers but the PE's
would charge for their stamp of approval thereby increasing the costs of
designing new boats and almost certainly killing creativity. They just
want
their cut . . .
I have no immediate concerns because I don't design large yachts but
tomorrow, the requirement may extend to the type of boat I design, less
than
65'.

I became a member of the SNAME at a time when membership required two
senior
fellows a sponsors. That was a sufficient guarantee of expertise: work a
few
years for another designer and then for a yacht manufacturer and they'll
decide waht you are worth.
An exam during which I would have to calculate the efficiency of a steam
engine will not prove that I am able to design a yacht.
No school or diploma will ever give you all what is needed to become a
good
yacht designer. To take a beating in a mean storm and hands on boat
building
experience are absolutely necessary but not taught in schools.
If one day I need the help of a PE, I will ask for it. I worked with an
excellent one at James Krogen. I don't think that I would get a commission
to design a larger yacht without setting up such a collaboration but let's
not make it a blanket requirement. It would kill our profession.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Agfb.670589$Ho3.141187@sccrnsc03...
Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required)
and
'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys
get
all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell
there's
pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put
a
Grey Davis TAX on it too.

Brian


"Michael Porter" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and
Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the
American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats
in
the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may
follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

Brian D wrote:
snip
If you want to play the safest bet, then go to school and get a degree in
mechanical engineering followed by a highly respected yacht design
school -or- get a degree in naval architecture (U. of Mich. etc). Follow
this by taking the FE, putting in some time, joining SNAME and taking their
PE preparation training, then getting your naval architecture PE.
snip

As far as I know, the only places in the U.S. to get an undergraduate
degree in naval architecture are Webb Institute (in NY), U Michigan, U
of New Orleans, and the U.S. Naval Academy. MIT, U Mich, and Webb have
graduate programs. I think all the undergraduate programs are actually
naval architecture AND marine engineering. The various state merchant
marine academys generally offer a degree in marine engineering that
concentrates on machinery and systems with little or no exposure to
stability, arrangements, hydrodynamics, or structures.

When I was at Webb there was no academic coverage of recreational boats,
although a far amount of interest among the students (and a very active
racing program). The theory is of course all the same, but the examples
and practical experience are on commercial and military ships. A 120'
offshore tug was the smallest ship I remember. There were some small
boat thesis topics senior year.

Some of the students also found work in small boat design offices during
summer breaks or winter work terms. At least one worked for free in
order to get the experience.

If a young(ish) person really wanted to get into small boat design, I'd
go for the academic degree and work in a boatyard or on the
commissioning crew of a new boat dealer during the first summer, and
find employment in small boat design firms during the remaining summers
as well as the winter if the break is long enough. Try to get in with
Sparkman & Stephens for one of those work terms. Take the EIT
Fundamentals of Engineering exam immediately on graduation; it is really
hard to crank back up for it later. Start collecting material for a
library early: look for design and installation guidance for engines and
other systems, follow the publications and activities of the SNAME Small
Craft Committee (one of my roommates chairs the sailing craft
sub-committee), join the Royal Institution of Naval Architects and
follow their small craft group (they recently started publishing journal
of small craft technology), and follow boatdesign.net.

dave
B.S. Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering '82
no longer in the industry

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