Beat me to it! I hate to join a choir late, but...

Bill McKee wrote:

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...

Wow - this is amazing.
Terry, my analogy below was bad as it turns out. You might have a better
chance getting the pig to sing.....

Billy, could you PLEASE give us all some idea of where you might be so I
can NEVER go there?

Matt Colie - See Prior sig

Bill McKee wrote:

"next.victim" wrote in message
...


Bill McKee wrote:


"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...



Terry,
Very well said, but save your bandwidth. (Teaching a pig to sing and
such.)

Billy believes he was the right(maybe the requirement) to take any
vessel anywhere close aboard at flank speed. He is convinced that, if
a vessel has any machinery onboard, it does not qualify as a vessel
undersail regardless of the situation. He has proven he is not capable
of interpreting Colregs the same way as the OMI to whom I wrote the
pages of my license examinations.

I just wish he had said where he is so we could all avoid him.

Matt Colie - See prior sigs - I'm tired of this.



Terry Spragg wrote:



at least it was on topic!
NI!

Terry K


Bill McKee wrote:
Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the
world be damned. Bill McKee wrote:


Throttle off, no control, turning radius about a boat length.



Well, if you put it that way, it sounds like it should be right, and
logically, it is exactly correct, and if you read what you wrote,
you may see why it is so funny, that you bite your own tail. Sailboats
can not just turn, (or not turn,) as wanted. They are overpowered by
the wind all the time. The wind blows sailboats around like leaves
sometimes. As a mariner, you are expected to understand that,
anticipate it, and survive the hazards anyway.

Overtaking vessels must keep clear, sail or power. If they cannot,
they must slow down to a safe speed, even stop. Chewy beans.

You are expected and required to understand sail and power, and all
their constraints, or stay home.

Sailboats flop about out of control from time to time, motor on or
off, whenever the sails are up and the wind is alive, it is the
nature of the game: 15 HP auxiliary engines, thousand HP wild winds,
waves, sails, ropes, winches, flying fish, nature, etc, etc. You
understand, don't you? If not, you should not be in command on the
water.

What you don't seem to grasp is that no one except possibly you,
would purposely hit someone with a car or boat, just because they were
****ed off and somehow surmise that they are in the right, have the
right of way, and therefore, have a license to kill anyone who does
not stay out of your way, regardless.

This attitude you seemingly cherish may well cause you to spend the
latter years of your life locked in a cell being raped by real nasty
*******s with really big muscles and real nasty diseases. On the
evidence you provide, I would bet two cents you are prettier than you
are smart.

On the water, all the regulations in the world are there to settle
lawsuits after damages occur, and to impress on mariners that
collisions are to be avoided by any means, at all costs, regardless of
the causes. The reason why should be obvious. A collision at sea can
ruin your whole life. Like being bitten by a dog, it can change your
attitude forever, the hard way.

Don't feel too bad, even real sea captains sometimes hit other
ships, and blow cities like Halifax all to hell, because they make
little mistakes early on, and suddenly find they cannot avoid the
other guy's similar idiocy. We are all human, right?

'Course, those arrogant guys usually end up losing their nice cushy
seat at the Captain's table, and deservedly so. Some commit suicide
once their role in disaster becomes obvious. These men have
consciences, at least. Some of their very cushy seats disappear below
the titanic icy waves as they sit in them, along with thousands of
their passengers.

Icebergs and the wind just don't care. It is left to us to be
responsible, considerate, cautious and courteous. Some grow up
earlier than others. Some never make it.

Fair winds to you, and the best of luck, for all our sakes. Your
skills, knowledge and attitude probably won't help you, your
passengers, or locals much. Old sailors would treat you like a rock
awash, if you would just keep still.

Otherwise, we fear for you.

Terry K



Bite Me. propulsion motor on, equal power boat.

A GIANT NOPE! See (c) below, Read it carefully, it was written by a
maritime lawyer.


Mr. McKee,

I would be forced to determine that what has previously been said is
completely accurate, and given this case, I would have to find a
judgement against you.

Please go to:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...les/Rule03.htm

below is exerted from the above:
For the purpose of these Rules and this Chapter [Inld], except where the
context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft, WIG craft [Intl], and seaplanes, used
or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by
machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided
that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
Unquote-

I find the above parts b & c to be clear and compelling. In the case of
being used, the only interpretation possible for “propelling machinery”
would be the case that said machinery was actually providing the driving
force to propel said vessel.

I my have no authority here, but I strongly recommend that you deal with
your issues as you have presented yourself to be a clear and present
hazzard as the operator of a vessel underpower.

Name withheld by authors request


And your motor is not propelling machinery?



Only if it is engaged and capable of overcoming the power of the wind.

So my "power boat" is not a power boat for rules when the motor is turned
off and I am drifting?

That's right. You become a vessel not under command, I believe. To
the outside world, you could be injured, ill, asleep, or having
fallen off miles before your boat ran out of gas, a pedestrian. You
will be given every consideration and possibly a tow home, a coffee,
and a chance to use the head, even a warm berth along with a warm
blankey, even a medicinal dose of brandy, splints for your broken
bones, even the "breath of life", provided the tanker can get
stopped before mashing you. Unfortunately, sailboats probably do not
carry enough fuel to replenish your tanks sufficiently to get you
home, else you might get some of it, too.

At sea, Billy, pedestrians have the absolute, inarguable right of way;-)

To run over one, even in the dark, is manslaughter if he dies, even
if he does make an unexpected turn in front of you. Negligent
manslaughter, if you were not keeping an adequate lookout, or were
running at excessive speed under the circumstances, which is
almost the same as murder.

The regulations govern men, not boats.

Those who can manouver best have the most responsibility to avoid
hazards. It makes sense, if you think about it, and if you read the
rules carefully and with an open mind you will see it plain.

You are right, sailing vessels cannot turn whenever they want. Nor
can they always prevent turns whenever they want, thanks to the wind
and other obstacles.

Surely your position is not that sailors do not have the same right
to enjoy the water as do power boaters? It is said among sailors
that essentially we ignore power boats simply because we have no
choise, being at their mercey.

We sailors cannot outrun, avoid, or catch high powered boats except
possibly double reefed in a steady gale where you might be puking up
your guts amidst the rollers, unable to maintain any speed at all
whilst struggling to survive in your fair weather speedboat.

Circumstances rule boats. Men do what they can.

The rest is common sense. The colregs are common sense, written by
lawyers, maritime lawyers at that, and are therefore unintelligible
to most mere mortal landlubbers. Don't feel bad. Furthermore, the
regs have been argued by better men than us, for hundreds of years,
and reflect the findings of numerous lawsuits, trials, boards of
inquiry, courts martial, et al. They must be read with painful
attention to the merest comma. You must realize too, that power boat
regulations are somewhat junior to those governing sail, which I
gather you could never understand, since you do not appreciate the
realities of sail, nor probably of power for that matter. Your jet
boat is a dangerous toy.

You must understand that sailboats, even with their engines engaged,
try as they might, may not actually be being propelled under control
of the engine, but may well be in the teeth of the unco-operative
wind and may be struggling with control. It is a part of sailing,
like rocks awash.

Even if they were after you, you could always stay out of reach, eh?

Terry K

"Bill McKee" wrote in
ink.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
news:

snip

, and I send you back to rule 2.

otn


And a stupid guy who is motoring with his sails up is going to run day
signals or lights? LOL!




G Didn't really expect you to grasp the point being made.

otn

Bill McKee wrote:

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
hlink.net...

And your motor is not propelling machinery?


No, Bill, a motor is not propelling machinery, nor is a propeller,
propelling machinery, but used together,
they become propelling machinery.
Just for kicks, let's get a bit more complicated.
The only way you can be certain (reasonably) under the Rules, that a sail
vessel is also being powered by some mechanical means
other than the sails, is, in daylight, a cone, apex down; at night, she's
lit as a power driven vessel; or radio communications.
Barring any of those (excluding some sailboat making 10k in a 1k breeze...
possible exceptions noted) you should consider the sailboat
just that ..... a sailboat, and I send you back to rule 2.

otn



And a stupid guy who is motoring with his sails up is going to run day
signals or lights? LOL!


Well, maybe not if he has a stupid greedy lawyer, and and you do
too, and it all winds up in court, IF there were damages that might
have been avoided, or settled beforhand.

If he's smart enough to know that there is sufficient wind (in his
locality) that he may be deflected from his intended course by the
wind, and is using his trolling motor, he may hoist a powering cone
to let you know that he is probably able to manouver better than he
could without an engine, but you should be able to tell, anyway,
just from looking, that he has a sail in the air, seems to be going
too fast for the wind, and may get farted on by the wind. If he has
a need for the engine in light airs, he probably has a big suit of
sails up, and is most vulnerable to a gust or turbulence from trees
half a mile away, etc. Got it?

He may be almost out of gas, can't charge his battery, and needs to
hoist a sail, so needs to turn into the wind soon, because of tides
and rocks awash. He may need 6 feet of water, or could soon be a
pedestrian.

He may not have any juke box money, either, because he spent it all
on charts. You do have charts on board?

A smart powerboater would have no question in his mind; sail in the
air is a hazard, keep very clear, if you can or slow down, under
pain of responsibility.

It's usually not a personal problem, is it? You got gas, you got a
steering wheel, eh? Your wrists are not as limp as your brain, are
they? Or is that your dick sticking up through your collar?

Now, stop chewing your own tail, or you'll grow hair on your nose
and go blind.

Which brings us back to that age old question, "Why do old sea dogs
lick their own balls?" Remember, to start with, only half of them do.

Consider yourself bitten.

Terry K

Terry,

This has been amazingly amuzing, shall we divert this here to a new case?

Billy is fishing from his drifting jetski (or what ever) and a sailboat
with no sails is approaching with no change in bearing. He is not
worried because he can see smoke at he transom. After all he is fishing
so the sailboat is the burden vessel here.

What little Billy has not bothered to notice is the the line (he calls
it rope) that is drifting in front of the sailboat.

He is also absolutely certain that Colregs part 3.d means that he has no
requirement to avoid the closing vessel. If you can only read one line
at time, it might be an honest mistake.

Questions:
1 - What is proper way for the anchored ketch to avoid a collision.
2 - Why is there no standing lookout in a part 202.50 anchorage?
3 - Who is tending the barbaque? (instead of watching for boats
drifting into the anchorage?

Matt Colie


Terry Spragg wrote:

Beat me to it! I hate to join a choir late, but...

Bill McKee wrote:

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...

Wow - this is amazing.
Terry, my analogy below was bad as it turns out. You might have a
better chance getting the pig to sing.....

Billy, could you PLEASE give us all some idea of where you might be
so I can NEVER go there?

Matt Colie - See Prior sig

Bill McKee wrote:

"next.victim" wrote in message
...


Bill McKee wrote:


"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...



Terry,
Very well said, but save your bandwidth. (Teaching a pig to sing
and such.)

Billy believes he was the right(maybe the requirement) to take
any vessel anywhere close aboard at flank speed. He is convinced
that, if a vessel has any machinery onboard, it does not qualify
as a vessel undersail regardless of the situation. He has proven
he is not capable of interpreting Colregs the same way as the OMI
to whom I wrote the pages of my license examinations.

I just wish he had said where he is so we could all avoid him.

Matt Colie - See prior sigs - I'm tired of this.



Terry Spragg wrote:



at least it was on topic!
NI!

Terry K



Bill McKee wrote:
Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of
the world be damned. Bill McKee wrote:



Throttle off, no control, turning radius about a boat length.




Well, if you put it that way, it sounds like it should be right,
and
logically, it is exactly correct, and if you read what you wrote,
you may see why it is so funny, that you bite your own tail.
Sailboats can not just turn, (or not turn,) as wanted. They are
overpowered by the wind all the time. The wind blows sailboats
around like leaves sometimes. As a mariner, you are expected to
understand that, anticipate it, and survive the hazards anyway.

Overtaking vessels must keep clear, sail or power. If they cannot,
they must slow down to a safe speed, even stop. Chewy beans.

You are expected and required to understand sail and power, and all
their constraints, or stay home.

Sailboats flop about out of control from time to time, motor on or
off, whenever the sails are up and the wind is alive, it is the
nature of the game: 15 HP auxiliary engines, thousand HP wild
winds, waves, sails, ropes, winches, flying fish, nature, etc,
etc. You understand, don't you? If not, you should not be in
command on the water.

What you don't seem to grasp is that no one except possibly you,
would purposely hit someone with a car or boat, just because
they were ****ed off and somehow surmise that they are in the
right, have the right of way, and therefore, have a license to
kill anyone who does not stay out of your way, regardless.

This attitude you seemingly cherish may well cause you to spend the
latter years of your life locked in a cell being raped by real
nasty
*******s with really big muscles and real nasty diseases. On the
evidence you provide, I would bet two cents you are prettier
than you are smart.

On the water, all the regulations in the world are there to settle
lawsuits after damages occur, and to impress on mariners that
collisions are to be avoided by any means, at all costs,
regardless of the causes. The reason why should be obvious. A
collision at sea can ruin your whole life. Like being bitten by
a dog, it can change your attitude forever, the hard way.

Don't feel too bad, even real sea captains sometimes hit other
ships, and blow cities like Halifax all to hell, because they make
little mistakes early on, and suddenly find they cannot avoid the
other guy's similar idiocy. We are all human, right?

'Course, those arrogant guys usually end up losing their nice cushy
seat at the Captain's table, and deservedly so. Some commit suicide
once their role in disaster becomes obvious. These men have
consciences, at least. Some of their very cushy seats disappear
below the titanic icy waves as they sit in them, along with
thousands of their passengers.

Icebergs and the wind just don't care. It is left to us to be
responsible, considerate, cautious and courteous. Some grow up
earlier than others. Some never make it.

Fair winds to you, and the best of luck, for all our sakes.
Your skills, knowledge and attitude probably won't help you,
your passengers, or locals much. Old sailors would treat you
like a rock awash, if you would just keep still.

Otherwise, we fear for you.

Terry K



Bite Me. propulsion motor on, equal power boat.


A GIANT NOPE! See (c) below, Read it carefully, it was written by a
maritime lawyer.


Mr. McKee,

I would be forced to determine that what has previously been said
is completely accurate, and given this case, I would have to find a
judgement against you.

Please go to:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...les/Rule03.htm

below is exerted from the above:
For the purpose of these Rules and this Chapter [Inld], except
where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft, WIG craft [Intl], and seaplanes,
used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled
by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail
provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
Unquote-

I find the above parts b & c to be clear and compelling. In the
case of being used, the only interpretation possible for
“propelling machinery” would be the case that said machinery was
actually providing the driving force to propel said vessel.

I my have no authority here, but I strongly recommend that you deal
with your issues as you have presented yourself to be a clear and
present hazzard as the operator of a vessel underpower.

Name withheld by authors request



And your motor is not propelling machinery?




Only if it is engaged and capable of overcoming the power of the wind.

So my "power boat" is not a power boat for rules when the motor is
turned off and I am drifting?


That's right. You become a vessel not under command, I believe. To
the outside world, you could be injured, ill, asleep, or having
fallen off miles before your boat ran out of gas, a pedestrian. You
will be given every consideration and possibly a tow home, a coffee,
and a chance to use the head, even a warm berth along with a warm
blankey, even a medicinal dose of brandy, splints for your broken bones,
even the "breath of life", provided the tanker can get stopped before
mashing you. Unfortunately, sailboats probably do not carry enough fuel
to replenish your tanks sufficiently to get you home, else you might get
some of it, too.

At sea, Billy, pedestrians have the absolute, inarguable right of way;-)

To run over one, even in the dark, is manslaughter if he dies, even
if he does make an unexpected turn in front of you. Negligent
manslaughter, if you were not keeping an adequate lookout, or were
running at excessive speed under the circumstances, which is
almost the same as murder.

The regulations govern men, not boats.

Those who can manouver best have the most responsibility to avoid
hazards. It makes sense, if you think about it, and if you read the
rules carefully and with an open mind you will see it plain.

You are right, sailing vessels cannot turn whenever they want. Nor
can they always prevent turns whenever they want, thanks to the wind
and other obstacles.

Surely your position is not that sailors do not have the same right
to enjoy the water as do power boaters? It is said among sailors
that essentially we ignore power boats simply because we have no
choise, being at their mercey.

We sailors cannot outrun, avoid, or catch high powered boats except
possibly double reefed in a steady gale where you might be puking up
your guts amidst the rollers, unable to maintain any speed at all
whilst struggling to survive in your fair weather speedboat.

Circumstances rule boats. Men do what they can.

The rest is common sense. The colregs are common sense, written by
lawyers, maritime lawyers at that, and are therefore unintelligible
to most mere mortal landlubbers. Don't feel bad. Furthermore, the
regs have been argued by better men than us, for hundreds of years,
and reflect the findings of numerous lawsuits, trials, boards of
inquiry, courts martial, et al. They must be read with painful
attention to the merest comma. You must realize too, that power boat
regulations are somewhat junior to those governing sail, which I
gather you could never understand, since you do not appreciate the
realities of sail, nor probably of power for that matter. Your jet
boat is a dangerous toy.

You must understand that sailboats, even with their engines engaged,
try as they might, may not actually be being propelled under control of
the engine, but may well be in the teeth of the unco-operative wind and
may be struggling with control. It is a part of sailing, like rocks awash.

Even if they were after you, you could always stay out of reach, eh?

Terry K

Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
hlink.net...

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by
machinery.

And your motor is not propelling machinery?

Try reading (b) again.



And your motor is not propelling machinery? I guess a power boat like mine
is not a power boat when the motor is turned off or not in gear. So you hit
a drift fishing "Power boat" who has his motor off or in not in gear, who is
at fault.


Billy. How old are you? Is it time for school yet? When a bicycle
runs into a parked car who is at fault?

Bill McKee wrote:
"Jim Carter" wrote in message
.. .

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
link.net...

So my "power boat" is not a power boat for rules when the motor is turned
off and I am drifting?

Bill, have you read the Collision Regulations and do you not understand
them? Have you read the correct terminology that is fully explained in
these regulations? If not, why don't you get a copy of them and read
them from cover to cover so that you are better informed before you write
such questions as you wrote above. Everything that you are asking is
fully
explained in the Collision Regulations. For example, your question that
you are now asking is explained in Rule 3 General Definitions (a)

Got that Bill?

Jim C.




Can you answer my question? Is a power boat a power boat with the engine
off or in neutral?

Got that Jim?


Power boat, underway but not making way.

Matt Colie wrote:

Terry,

This has been amazingly amuzing, shall we divert this here to a new case?

Billy is fishing from his drifting jetski (or what ever) and a sailboat
with no sails is approaching with no change in bearing. He is not
worried because he can see smoke at he transom. After all he is fishing
so the sailboat is the burden vessel here.

What little Billy has not bothered to notice is the the line (he calls
it rope) that is drifting in front of the sailboat.

He is also absolutely certain that Colregs part 3.d means that he has no
requirement to avoid the closing vessel. If you can only read one line
at time, it might be an honest mistake.

Questions:
1 - What is proper way for the anchored ketch to avoid a collision.
2 - Why is there no standing lookout in a part 202.50 anchorage?
3 - Who is tending the barbaque? (instead of watching for boats
drifting into the anchorage?

Matt Colie


That's "barbeque", Billy.

I bet we could go on and on, but well,,, (Yawn) nawwww...

I would just let him get close, then spray him with gasoline from my
legal fire arm garden sprayer, or give him a "backside" from the
poop cannon, Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

Terry K

"Gary" wrote in message
news:eP8gf.551819$oW2.504551@pd7tw1no...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
thlink.net...

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by
machinery.

And your motor is not propelling machinery?

Try reading (b) again.



And your motor is not propelling machinery? I guess a power boat like
mine is not a power boat when the motor is turned off or not in gear. So
you hit a drift fishing "Power boat" who has his motor off or in not in
gear, who is at fault.
Billy. How old are you? Is it time for school yet? When a bicycle runs
into a parked car who is at fault?

If in California the car may be at fault.
Let's ask the question about bikes and pedestrians. Refer to California.
1)You are driving down the street and a bike is coming down the other street
and runs the stop sign and you collide. Who is at fault?

2)You are driving down the street and a bike is coming down the other street
on the side walk and runs the stop sign and you collide. Who is at fault?

3) You are driving down the street and a pedestrian runs out from between 2
cars and you collide. Who is at fault?

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net, Bill
McKee wrote:

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net...
And what did the civil court award to the PWC? And you figure your
motor
is not propelling equipment?

I don't know what he figures, but unless my motor, running or not, is
turning my propeller whilst sailing for the express purpose of moving
my
vessel, then I am a sailboat.

otn


Better do a little research.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa. This from a moron operator of a PWC, to a
licensed all oceans ships master and pilot?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

I'd tell Bill to get a clue, but he couldn't manage that if it was
stuck to his forehead with duct tape.

PDW

He is an incompetant master and pilot, and is only trying to project that he
has a 100 ton license.

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
Matt Colie wrote:

Terry,

This has been amazingly amuzing, shall we divert this here to a new case?

Billy is fishing from his drifting jetski (or what ever) and a sailboat
with no sails is approaching with no change in bearing. He is not
worried because he can see smoke at he transom. After all he is fishing
so the sailboat is the burden vessel here.

What little Billy has not bothered to notice is the the line (he calls it
rope) that is drifting in front of the sailboat.

He is also absolutely certain that Colregs part 3.d means that he has no
requirement to avoid the closing vessel. If you can only read one line
at time, it might be an honest mistake.

Questions:
1 - What is proper way for the anchored ketch to avoid a collision.
2 - Why is there no standing lookout in a part 202.50 anchorage?
3 - Who is tending the barbaque? (instead of watching for boats drifting
into the anchorage?

Matt Colie


That's "barbeque", Billy.

I bet we could go on and on, but well,,, (Yawn) nawwww...

I would just let him get close, then spray him with gasoline from my legal
fire arm garden sprayer, or give him a "backside" from the poop cannon,
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

Terry K



http://www.spinnaker-sailing.com/les.../k_lessone.htm