Homemade water tanks.
 

Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty

Homemade water tanks.
 

If you mean that melamine coated masonite, forget it. OK for short term
exposure in a shower surround but constantly soaked in a tank the water
will get through and turn the backing to mush. You may find some solid
plastic stuff a few racks down the aisle at the Home Despot that will
not absorb water. It is usually stuck to walls with Liquid nails or
other construction adhesive but I have not found an adheasive that will
stick to it reliably in a joint.

If you can build the tank outside and install it a laid up polyester or
epoxy FRP tank with a glued on lid would work. If you have access to an
air compressor and want to learn something new for a little less money
you can get a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" HDPE from a plastics distributor for
about $65 and a plastic welder from Harbor freight for another $25.
With a little practice on some scrap you can make a really nice tank
almost any shape you want. (Curves are not easy though)

Backyard Renegade wrote:

Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Homemade water tanks.
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:E0Slb.90613$sp2.84885@lakeread04...
If you mean that melamine coated masonite, forget it. OK for short term
exposure in a shower surround but constantly soaked in a tank the water
will get through and turn the backing to mush. You may find some solid
plastic stuff a few racks down the aisle at the Home Despot that will
not absorb water. It is usually stuck to walls with Liquid nails or
other construction adhesive but I have not found an adheasive that will
stick to it reliably in a joint.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I found this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=41592
but I am a little confused. Do you feed some type of volitile gas, or
does it just shoot electrically heated forced air?
Scotty

If you can build the tank outside and install it a laid up polyester or
epoxy FRP tank with a glued on lid would work. If you have access to an
air compressor and want to learn something new for a little less money
you can get a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" HDPE from a plastics distributor for
about $65 and a plastic welder from Harbor freight for another $25.
With a little practice on some scrap you can make a really nice tank
almost any shape you want. (Curves are not easy though)

Backyard Renegade wrote:

Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty

Homemade water tanks.
 

Backyard Renegade wrote:


Thanks, that's what I thought. I found this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=41592
but I am a little confused. Do you feed some type of volitile gas,
or does it just shoot electrically heated forced air? Scotty

That's it. Price must have gone up sense I got mine. You hook it up to
an air supply and an element in the gun heats it to about 350F. It
doesn't take much air.

With some practice you can get a pretty decent weld. Especially for the
price. Just be sure the material is very clean and use the proper rod.
It has to be the same plastic as the base material.

Clamp everything really well because you have to press the filler rod
pretty hard to get it to blend with the joint and don't try to fill the
joint in one pass. Make 3 or 4 passes to slightly overfill the seam and
then trim off the excess.

Two things I don't like about it. It has no temperature control so you
have to fiddle with the air flow to get the right heat and it doesn't
come with any tips. I would love a speed tip that holds the rod in the
right position so you get more even beads but as little as I use it I
don't want to pay $250 for a better model.


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Homemade water tanks.
 

You're a belt and suspenders guy right after my own heart, Glenn, so
I'm curious. You're satisfied that welded HDPE will stay together,
long term, under the dynamic loading of water tanks? How big a tank
before you run out of confidence? And where does the air compressor
come in? Tell us more.....

Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:E0Slb.90613$sp2.84885@lakeread04...
If you mean that melamine coated masonite, forget it. OK for short term
exposure in a shower surround but constantly soaked in a tank the water
will get through and turn the backing to mush. You may find some solid
plastic stuff a few racks down the aisle at the Home Despot that will
not absorb water. It is usually stuck to walls with Liquid nails or
other construction adhesive but I have not found an adheasive that will
stick to it reliably in a joint.

If you can build the tank outside and install it a laid up polyester or
epoxy FRP tank with a glued on lid would work. If you have access to an
air compressor and want to learn something new for a little less money
you can get a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" HDPE from a plastics distributor for
about $65 and a plastic welder from Harbor freight for another $25.
With a little practice on some scrap you can make a really nice tank
almost any shape you want. (Curves are not easy though)

Backyard Renegade wrote:

Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty

Homemade water tanks.
 

Backyard Renegade wrote:
Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty

The to successfully welding polyethyelene is in melting not only the new
material, but also the edge of the tank wall, so the new and existing
material blend to become single mass. It takes a bit practice and skill
to get it right, with no bubbles, and just enough of each material.

So by the time you buy the heat welder, the sheets of poly, rods and
practice scraps, you may find--depending on the size of the tank you
want to build (and btw, the bigger the tank, the thicker the walls need
to be to support the weight of the water...don't start with less than
1/4" for the smallest tank)--you may find it just as cheap to buy a
tank. Check the Ronco Plastics (no relation to the Vego-Matic Ronco)
catalog (http://www.ronco-plastics.com...they build top quality tanks
for a very reasonable price, and have more than 400 shapes and sizes to
choose from, including over 100 that are non-rectangular. I've yet to
find very many boats they don't have a tank to fit.

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

Homemade water tanks.
 

IF you do the weld RIGHT it will be about 80% as strong as the base
HDPE. The gun heats a stream of compressed air. About 8-12 psi and
blows it into the seam. It is really welding not gluing so you have to
make sure that the base material and the filler rod all melt together.

Thus far I have welded up a 7 gallon grey water holding tank to fit
inside the keel frame and a box to shield the back side of the
watermaker control panel. I pressure tested the grey water tank to 5
psi and it held together so I am pretty confident of it. OTOH, I do not
think I would try to weld up a 40 gallon tank or a any tank that I might
not want to smell if it sprung a leak. :-)

I was assuming that Scotty was looking for 10-15 gallon capacity tanks.
When you start talking about bouncing 2-300 pounds of liquid around
though I will leave that to a rotomolded tank.

It works for HD polyethylene used in water tanks and some other
thermoplastics but NOT for cross linked polyethylene used in fuel tanks
or UHMW poly.

Jim Woodward wrote:
You're a belt and suspenders guy right after my own heart, Glenn, so
I'm curious. You're satisfied that welded HDPE will stay together,
long term, under the dynamic loading of water tanks? How big a tank
before you run out of confidence? And where does the air compressor
come in? Tell us more.....

Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:E0Slb.90613$sp2.84885@lakeread04...

If you mean that melamine coated masonite, forget it. OK for short term
exposure in a shower surround but constantly soaked in a tank the water
will get through and turn the backing to mush. You may find some solid
plastic stuff a few racks down the aisle at the Home Despot that will
not absorb water. It is usually stuck to walls with Liquid nails or
other construction adhesive but I have not found an adheasive that will
stick to it reliably in a joint.

If you can build the tank outside and install it a laid up polyester or
epoxy FRP tank with a glued on lid would work. If you have access to an
air compressor and want to learn something new for a little less money
you can get a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" HDPE from a plastics distributor for
about $65 and a plastic welder from Harbor freight for another $25.
With a little practice on some scrap you can make a really nice tank
almost any shape you want. (Curves are not easy though)

Backyard Renegade wrote:


Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Homemade water tanks.
 

On Peggie's recommendation, i got a pair of Ronco tanks for my current
project. They are well made and reasonable in cost. If one of their tanks
fits your space, there is no reason to fabricate your own.

Peggie Hall wrote:

SNIP

Check the Ronco Plastics (no relation to the Vego-Matic Ronco)
catalog (http://www.ronco-plastics.com...they build top quality tanks
for a very reasonable price, and have more than 400 shapes and sizes to
choose from, including over 100 that are non-rectangular. I've yet to
find very many boats they don't have a tank to fit.

Peggie
-

Homemade water tanks.
 

Scotty,

It sounds like what you were originally talking about is the relatively
new 1/8"X4"X8" FRP panels, costing about $26, that are meant to replace
the old 1/4 inch tile board.

I have used a ton of it in the family restaurants for kitchens and
bathrooms. When it is fresh it reeks of polyester so it should work
good with epoxy, which is something you already do well. I have never
built anything structural out of if but have attached things with epoxy
with success so far. Some testing here is in order. A tank would
obviously have to have stiffeners on the panels but so does an FRP hull.
You might even be able to us the inside corner trim peaces to glue the
tank together.

I am using it to replace the crappy plywood and teak panels in my Irwin
37. I am going to epoxy it to 1/4" plastic to make new sliding doors
for my hanging lockers. I just put a peace down on the floor of our
commissary to see how well it fold up as flooring. In addition, the
stuff works really well with wood working tools. I have cut it with a
tablesaw, skillsaw, handsaw, bandsaw and router, I even scored a peace
once with a boxknife (I was in a hurry) and snapped it.

I hope this helps.

Regards, Ron

Homemade water tanks.
 

On 23 Oct 2003 07:41:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:

Hey folks, Scotty here.
What I am planning is some custom water tanks and such to be made to
fit inbetween two bulkheads. They will hold water for washing hands
and such, not necessarily drinking water. Any suggestions as to what
material and what adhesive/connectors to use to keep it watertight? I
was thinking some of that bathroom wall material they sell at Home
Depot, but would I use some kind of silicone, pvc cement, or would I
have to weld it, and if so, how?
Thanks for the input, Scotty
Hi scotty I copied this from the rec.aviation.homebuilt group. It
just got posted a couple days ago. The author is fairly well respected
over there.
Drew Dalgleish


Riveted aluminum fuel tanks are smart. They're easy to build and
superbly
practical for the homebuilder since she can make them in whatever
shape she
needs.

Most folks shy away from this fabrication technique due to the high
cost of
Pro-Seal, still listed at more than $8/oz in the Aircraft Spruce
catalog (P/N
09-38500 "2oz sealant" $17.85). But now that Thiokol's patents on
polysulfide
sealants have expired seam-sealers that do equally well are available
for
pennies per pound instead of dollars per ounce. Life Industries is one
such
source. They make a line of polysulfide sealants for marine
applications,
including a two-part fuel-proof formulation used to calk fuel tanks &
bilges.

With aluminum, the sealant-bonding question - getting the stuff to
stick - is a
no-brainer. Go to your local Home Depot and buy a quart of JASCO ‘Prep
&
Primer.' Or buy a quart of ‘AlumaPrep' from Aircraft Spruce. Same
stuff,
chemically speaking. Of course, the aviation-grade' alumaprep is
dramatically
more expensive.

Degrease then etch the panels you want the sealant to adhere to for
thirty
minutes in a solution of ‘Prep & Primer.' (The strength of the
solution isn't
critical. Anything from 1:1 to 3:1 works fine on clean aluminum. If
using
Alumaprep, follow their dilution instructions.) ‘Prep & Primer' is a
phosphoric acid etchant made specifically for galvanized and aluminum
surfaces.
Scrub the etched surface with a Scotch-brite pad and neutralize with
boiling
water. The result will be a matte white finish.

To insure greater integrity of your rivet line, you may wish to use
countersunk
rivets. The dimple adds depth to the rivet line, making it stiffer
without
increasing its weight. The 120 degree dies you need for poppers are
available
from Airparts in Kansas City (www.airpartsinc.com) for about six
dollars. And
from other folks, too. The dies are used with your regular pop-rivet
gun. Of
course, if you have a lathe it takes only a few minutes to make such a
set of
dies and even un-hardened they'll last for several plane's-worth of
dimples.

If you've never used flush-head poppers, run a few rows of sets before
tackling
the tank. The dimpling process ENLARGES the hole. The geometry here is
subtle
so be cool, work at the pilot-hole level, opening up the hole to
rivet-size
after you've dimpled & fitted the row. If you don't, the rivet will be
too
loose to pop; it'll just pull out. Be VERY careful when deburring as
you'll be
working on a corner instead of a flat. A file may be a better choice
than a
regular deburring tool. (These factors have probably contributed to
the
Conventional Wisdom that sez flush-head poppers don't work very well.
They work
just fine, but only when they fit the hole.)

With a pitch of about an inch aluminum poppers provide more than
adequate
strength for this application. Indeed, the stiffness of steel
flush-head
poppers dictates a minimum metal-depth of about forty thou. Anything
thinner
and you're liable to pull the popper through the hole before it can
form a
large enough shop-head to snap the mandrel.

You can buy flush-head aluminum poppers from J.C.Whitney in boxes of
500 for
about $12. (JCW item# 14xx4090A, box of 500, $12.19) The short ones do
fine for
this type of job.

As with all poppers, be sure to wash them good in MEK prior to use.
The
manufacture of pop rivets always leaves some amount of lubricant on
the
finished product. That tiny trace of oil will interfere with the
adhesion of
the sealant (and of your zinc chromate, when using steel poppers on
your other
panels).

Steel poppers may be a wiser choice for attaching the flanged aluminum
fitting
for the tank's outlet. You may of course use steel button-head poppers
for the
entire tank if you wish. I like the flush-head aluminum jobbies for
the
seam-lines because they give me a stiffer joint at less weight.

If you prefer to use solid rivets you'll need to provide access for
bucking the
things. Wag Aero still sells sealed blind-nuts for a reasonable price
(Cat#
L-676-000 Pkg of 50 for $10.95) Sealed blind nuts are standard for
fuel tanks.
The threads of the screw are sealed away from the contents of the tank
inside a
little dome. Slosh the tank, you can still remove the access panel.

Tanks tend to violate the rule for panel size vs edge support so
you'll
probably want to pound an ‘X' bead into the four sides and the bottom.
If
the top of the tank is curved it will already be stiff enough but the
sides &
bottom will tend to be pretty wimpy, especially if you're using soft
aluminum.
(Almost anything will do for making a tank. Don't tell anyone but
I've made
tanks out of siding aluminum. )

If you don't understand what I'm talking about here, take a look at a
steel
Jerry can. Some guys like to roll such flutes into the panel but you
can do
perfectly well by making up a suitable groove or gap in a board,
laying the
panel across it and making several light passes along the groove with
your
rubber mallet.

Fuel tank is usually an irregular box. Occasionally an irregular
cylinder.
Cylinders support themselves but boxes don't. If the thing has
corners, plan
on adding a couple of baffles, not only to control the slosh but to
stiffen the
structure.

Rivet-on flanges for the filler and outlet are available from aircraft
suppliers but since they are simple turnings they are easy enough to
make if
you have a lathe. And even if you don't. There are thousands of
hobby-machinists on the Internet, their weapon of choice a little 7x10
lathe
that's plenty big enough to whip out a set of fuel tank fittings. To
track down
such folks just go to the appropriate Newsgroup –
rec.crafts.metalworking is
but one of dozens of such groups – post a message having ‘Help!' as
the
subject line, describe the job and tell them where you're located. The
squeaking wheel gets the grease - keep shouting until you connect with
someone
in your area. Like all machinists - which is what these folks are...
the size
of the machine has nothing to do with it - he'll need an accurately
dimensioned
drawing to work from and you'll probably need to provide him with the
stock.
Applying sealants is messy as hell, especially Pro-Seal and the other
polysulfides. Masking off the area to be sealed/riveted will help and
you might
want to consider PK's instead of clecos. Polysulfide sealant is close
to the
perfect adhesive, it'll stick to ANYTHING... and doesn't like to come
off. (For
dimpled holes you'll need the longer (ie, 3/8") PK's.) Grubby-up a PK,
throw it
away. You're out maybe two cents.

Give the surface to be sealed a final wipe-down with MEK (or whatever
solvent
is recommended for you sealant). Allow it to evaporate. Apply the
sealant
according to the instructions. Most call for a smooth, uniform coating
on both
surfaces. Not too thick, a few thousandths is all you'll need if
your
rivet-line is a good fit. And not too wide, about three-quarter of an
inch,
max. Most of this stuff cures by reaction with water vapor in the air,
something present everywhere on our particular planet. Cure time is a
function
of the width of the sealant-line and the humidity in the air. (That's
why the
stuff is so popular with boaters – it cures underwater faster than out
of
it.) The two-part formulation cures faster than the no-mix stuff.

You only need about three ounces of sealant for a ten gallon tank,
most of
which will go on the flanges, your tools and your clothes. (If you've
never
used Pro-Seal before, buy a pint :-)

If you use the 2oz kits, the little tubes can be hard to handle
without the
matching gun, a $75 item. (Aircraft certified, right? :-) A dime's
worth of
Bondo will allow you to modify a regular calking gun to accept the 2oz
aircraft-certified cartridges. If you want to go that route, I'll tell
you how
to make an adapter.

Aircraft Spruce also lists the stuff in pints [$37] and quarts [$74]
but the
secret to using bulk-packaged sealants is how to mix & apply the stuff
without
gluing yourself to the wall. The usual mix ratio is 10:1 and is fairly
critical. The use of a ratio'd balance beam, baggies for one component
and a
Teflon cup for the other is a fairly common procedure. Once you've
balanced the
beam, pour the One-stuff from the Teflon cup into the Ten-stuff in the
plastic
baggie then seal up the baggie and mix the stuff by squishing the
baggie, like
colorizing oleomargarine in days of yore. (That's my yore, not your
yore.) Once
the color is uniform, snip a corner of the baggie and squeeze the
stuff out
like decorating a cake, using a scrap of metal as a palette knife to
smooth the
bead to a uniform thickness across the bond line.

Standard practice when using poppers with a sealed structure is to dip
the
degreased popper in the sealant just before you stick it in the hole
and give
it a little twist. Don't get too far ahead with the sticking &
twisting before
coming back and doing the popping. The structure should be perfectly
secured
with a PK in about every fourth hole giving you three poppers in a
row. When
you pop, always do the middle one first. Once it's popped some guys
butter a
smear of sealant into the mandrel hole but it's not necessary if
you're going
to slosh the tank.

After your tank is fabricated leave it alone for about three days,
until the
sealant is cured. After it has cured you can provide yourself with
virtual
100% leak-free assurance by sloshing the tank with a PVA fuel tank
sealant. J.
C. Whitney will sell you a quart of the stuff for about thirty bucks.
You need
less than a pint but I haven't found anyone who'll sell me that small
a
quantity. As with the polysulfides, there are only a few companies
that make
fuel tank sealants and most use functionally identical formulations.
The thirty
dollar stuff from J.C.Whitney appears to be the same as the hundred
dollar
stuff with ‘aircraft-certified' on the label. Maybe it's not but it
works the
same.

Since your tank was already etched, the sloshing sealant is going to
form a
perfect bond. Plug the outlet, pour in the sloshing sealant (it's a
creamy
white stuff; the vehicle is MEK) seal up the inlet (I use a hose clamp
and
piece of inner tube) then commence rolling the tank over and around
and up and
down... but in a logical fashion. What you want to do is to flow the
sloshing
sealer over every part of the interior surface.

After sloshing the tank, drain the sealant back into its can and seal
it up
good. Remove whatever is plugging the drain so air can circulate
through the
tank, prop it so it can drip out then leave the thing to cure.

Takes about 24 ours.

When it's cured, get your light wand and your bore scope and whatever
else you
need and inspect the interior surface. It should have a uniform white
coating.

The sealant is a form of PVA – polyvinylalcohol. Once cured, it is
impervious
to virtually all solvents, including gasoline, alcohol and water. I've
used the
J.C.Whitney stuff on steel, aluminum and fiberglas with excellent
results (JCW
"Alcohol resistant Gas Tank Sealer" item# 12xx8316Y each $28.99). How
well it
works depends largely on how well you've prepped the surface. Basic
rule is to
have it perfectly free of grease, including fingerprints. For
aluminum, you
need to provide some ‘tooth' to the surface, which is accomplished by
the
etchant (ie, the Prep & Primer stuff).

Lots of ‘expert' homebuilders damn such tanks with faint praise. Sure
it
works... but REAL fuel tanks are ALWAYS welded, yadayadayada... Sure
they are,
Mr. Expert. (I invite those experts to join me at FlaBob as we
refurbish a
P-51... and its riveted, sealed and sloshed fuel tanks.)

Your fuel system should have a strainer in the tank. Smartest one you
can get
is to MAKE YOUR OWN using a short length of 3003 aluminum tubing, slit
about
every quarter inch with a hobby saw. The typical hobby saw leaves a
kerf about
..028" wide, much smaller than the mesh of a cheap finger strainer.
Cut enough
slots to insure the thing will flow enough fuel.

The tank should be equipped with a shut-off valve. See the Northern
Hydraulics
catalog. Go to the same source for your gascolator. It ain't
aviation-certified but it works and doesn't cost the earth.

Basic fuel tank plumbing is to keep a constant down-ward flow of
fairly large
diameter tubing from the tank to the gascolator. The idea here is
that
anything large enough to get through the strainer in the tank will NOT
block
the fuel line but will simply end up in the gascolator.

If you're flying a VW a primer makes for easier starting. Since you
hand-prop
real engines, put the primer near the gascolator; no need to put any
more fuel
in the fuselage than absolutely necessary. Great Plains sells a good
primer at
a fair price.

For lo-buck builders, riveted, sealed and sloshed fuel tanks are a
practical
alternative to other methods of fabrication, their use so common we
tend to
forget others may not have heard of them.

-R.S.Hoover

PS - The ‘xx' in the JCW item numbers is different for each catalog
but the
basic number stays the same.
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