Our ship is an East coast Smack build in England in 1876. Used as a
trawler till 1976. Registered as MN21, Maud. The ship is 37
ft long. (for Smack info:
http://www.alberta-ck318.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm ) About 25 years
ago the previous owner placed a new iron beam under the ship made a
second skin from ferro-cement around the ship, and sailed it to the
Netherlands. Now we have the problem.
The wood on the inside is slowly rotting away. It still has some
strength but it shouldn't be much less, I think. So we want to stop
the rotting process. To renew the planking or timbers is impossible
because of the ferro-cement
The inside of the ship never gets dry, if we measure it with a meter
it gives a humidity of 50%, even for some parts replaced half a year
ago. So for me the idea of getting the planking and timbers dry
doesn't sound real.
I think I read most threads about this subject, but I still have
some questions.
Because of humidity problems it looks like the only choice we have is
to work with glycol recipe's from Dave Carnell. But then I'm wondering
or we can still sleep inside afterwards. (toxic gas?)
How much time should I reckon for the solution to reach the bottom of
the keel, probably a 12 x 8 beam.
Or is it even in humid condition possible to work with a Borate
solution? And which one?
And in case of the Borate solutions I'm wondering or it reacts with
the concrete and the metal inside that?
Then afterwards we like to reinforce the rotten wood with something
what we could impregnate in the wood, and what would give some more
strength. At a museum in Holland they told me a PEG would not work
because it disappears in water. But I should look for a Polyurethane
product. If you inject that it would push away the water. But in the
subjects here people talk only about Epoxy products. (CPES). But
according to my information it hardens to fast to really impregnate
the wood. .
But if this is the only way to go I will consider it.
Then the problem is does the wood get dry enough to use CPES after the
treatment to stop the rotting process? How dry should it be?
This discussions here are going on for quit a while now so there
should be some people with experience now. As you might understand
your information is important for me because in a situation like this
you can do it only once.


Gerdjan van der Lugt

P.S. I'm not a chemical engineer and the next thought is probably very
stupid but isn't there a catalyser what can start the polymerization
from ethylene glycol to a PEG after the impregnation of the wood.?
This is probably only a fantasy.

Sounds ugly I'm afraid you've lost her. You might have to think about
ripping out the entire wood framing. and seeing what you have left.

Piece of history there. Somehow I doubt there is any low-cost way of
dealing with this.

Some thoughts you may have dealt with already, but here goes:

Dumb question: Why is it so wet down there if the hull has been
encapsulated with ferro? Is it from topside? Has the water got to the
steel keel in the ferro and totaled it?

Thought: Salt water greatly inhibits rot (but kills anything it reaches
inside the ferro). Is that fresh or salt water getting into there? I'd
guess theres a lot of fresh water getting down there from topside. I've
heard skippers used to hang salt bags up under the deck at the sheer to
help keep the boat "salted".

Thought: The hull can probably be made tight by coating or encapsulating
the ferro. Penetrations would need to be handled carefully and
monitored, but that's doable.

However, 2nd dumb question: What _is_ sound on the boat? IOW, what's
worth saving, relative to the cost of saving it? Eg. by removing the
ferro (maybe not necessary?) and encapsulating in _structural_ GRP you
can manufacture a complete and dry structural hull around the existing
boat (I'm assuming that the ferro is/was not structural except at the
keel - it does not support the hull). By mickey mousing in somewhat
similar hi-tec fashion with the topsides and deck, you can come real
close to making her totally dry at the cost of a moderate weight penalty
and some clever deck modifications to handle rain water. At that point,
you would prep and then spray paint on all bilge/floor/hull surfaces
(interior) to further stop moisture absorbtion. The deck would probably
be the most difficult part. Now, what do you have? Is the interior good?
Is the mast/rigging good? Is the steering good? The boat would no longer
smell or sound like the wooden sailboat she began as. That's not to say
she'd be unpleasant or bad, but a totally dry boat with a very stiff
solid hull would be a quite different boat from the way (I think) she is
now. Would that be good for you?

Allan H. Vaitses (note spelling), of Mattapoisett MA, has made a name
for himself as an extremely practical and resourceful boatbuilder for
many years. He is now 85 or so and working on another book. He (and now
his son) has used encapsulation techniques for years to keep the local
fishermen going. If you contact him or his yard you may be able to get
another perspective on your problem. For purposes of amity, note that he
is a far right wing libertarian sort.

Rufus

Some additional information: The Ferro-cement sheathing is almost a
1/2 inch thick, and strong. A couple of years ago I had a small
accident with a boat made from steal, he had to go to a reparation
dock. The deck and it's timbers are 15 years ago renewed. But its made
from pine, and it's not watertight. The water comes through the deck,
so it is fresh water , when we sail there is coming some salt water as
well but it's not the majority. The wood under the deck is old, there
has always been water in the bilge, there is a lot of rot wood, the
ventilation is difficult, I live in a humid country. Anyway the wood
is soaked.
But the boat as it is, still is strong. The old wooden hull in its
total functions as a part of the bone structure for the ship. The mast
rigging is still good, the shaft and propeller etc are renewed last
year(the old shaft was leaking water, we are trying to improve), the
steering system we are checking at the moment. Basically with the rest
we can live.
To keep it that way I have to do something with the rotten wood. I
think when I can stop the process of rot, I can try to get the boat
dryer and then I can try to improve the old wood structure with an
impregnating epoxy or polyurethane product.
Salt bags under the deck sounds like a smart thing.

Gerdjan van der Lugt

(Gerdjan) writes:

To keep it that way I have to do something with the rotten wood. I
think when I can stop the process of rot, I can try to get the boat
dryer and then I can try to improve the old wood structure with an
impregnating epoxy or polyurethane product.

It doesn't go that way, and here is the place you are getting the whole
process wrong. A chemical approach is not an answer to exessive rot. The
key is to stop the leaks. Stop the leaks by fixing the deck, changing
wood, patching the cracks in concrete etc. After _that_ you might be able
to use a chemical product or another, but if you don't stop the leaks
nothing will change by pouring some glycol, epoxy or other goop to the
bilge and hoping for the best.

If you had only a small spot of rot here and there you might survive with
just slopping on some epoxy, but now you are risking the whole structural
strength of the hull.

The only long-term solution is to change the rotten wood. There are no
miracle products which would stop the rot and make the wood new. There are
only products which may slow the rot down and restore some of the
strength, but that's not enough.

And fix the leaks. What you are doing now is just like having a house with
a leaky roof. Fussing around with chemicals without fixing the leaks is
just as stupid as trying to fix the damages of a leaky roof by putting on
new wallpapers to the walls.

Think about that for a while.

Pekka

--
http://www.puuvene.net/

Hi

(Gerdjan) wrote in message om...
Our ship is an East coast Smack build in England in 1876. Used as a
trawler till 1976. Registered as MN21, Maud. The ship is 37
ft long. (for Smack info:
http://www.alberta-ck318.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm ) About 25 years
ago the previous owner placed a new iron beam under the ship made a
second skin from ferro-cement around the ship, and sailed it to the
Netherlands. Now we have the problem.

This is so sad to read, now this is my best shots take it or leave it
;


1; Remove the concrete, replank the vessel that already was given 25
years more due to the concrete .

2; remove the concrete the planking is proberly full of nails that
maby is rusted away ,to hold the chicken wire in the first place,
leave the hull to dry for a year or two, glasfiber and polyester or
epoxy it.

You will stay with the problem with moisture untill the concrete is
gone, as that proberly is cold enough to make moisture in the inside
air condensate onto the colder surfaces no matter what condisions,
beside --- most small vessels don't have a ventilation system ,that is
made so that fresh air is taken from outside to be circulated between
the ribs ,so the air will be heated and acturly dry out the deadrooms
, so even you heat the cabin this just transport more moisture thru
the wood to the cold concrete.
-------- If 25 years ago you had made an airtight inner paneling with
air inlets from outdoor ,your problem could today be the reverse ;
that the planking would be cracking dry ,but when dameage done and the
hull proberly 25 years ago already shuld have been re-planked , a
complete new fresh air system working as proposed, will just be
another vaste of time and money, but this is the way to go if you
remove the concrete and replank the hull.
Before you decide, remember that with an old wooden boat ,a repair
alway's ask atleast a third more wood replaced than you can se.
P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

Having not seen the craft and the extent of the damage I can only guess that
25 years ago someone thought the way to save it for a while longer was to
encapuslate it in ferrocement.

Today people are taking older craft and coating them in epoxy.

This might increase the longiviety for some period but the initial problem
has only been covered up to resurface later under a new owner.

UNLESS YOU CUT IT OUT AND BURN IT ROT SPORES WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST IN THE
WOOD ONLY TO BEGIN THEIR CYCLE OF DESTRUCTION AT THE FIRST
OPPORTUNITY.!!!!!!!!!! ANY CRACK IN THE COATING IS A MEANS FOR MOISTURE
AND AND A WOODEN BOAT MOVES MAKING CRACKS AND THE COATING ONLY
PREVENTS THE MOISTURE FROM EXCAPING. GET THE POINT.

Terry.

Hi

"terry" wrote in message ...

Snip

UNLESS YOU CUT IT OUT AND BURN IT ROT SPORES WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST IN THE
WOOD ONLY TO BEGIN THEIR CYCLE OF DESTRUCTION AT THE FIRST
OPPORTUNITY.!!!!!!!!!! ANY CRACK IN THE COATING IS A MEANS FOR MOISTURE
AND AND A WOODEN BOAT MOVES MAKING CRACKS AND THE COATING ONLY
PREVENTS THE MOISTURE FROM EXCAPING. GET THE POINT.

Terry.

You are quite right, ----- but you must remember that there are spores
everywhere. It is not only the presence of spores but if the
inviroment make them possible to grow that count ; rot where there are
several species often feeding of eachother is acturly quite fragile
organisms , ------ they need oxygen, they need except e few species
water (unf. one of the most dangouras species the yellow house one
produce it's own water ) They need to live within a cirtain temperture
; remove one of these tree factors and the rot will encapsulate itself
untill the right inviroment is there again.
But except from that I agrea ; this boat had 25 years more, and it's
age and type indicate that it is worth saving even you would end up
replacing the whole lot ; now that can be seen as a big problem, but
when you look around and check what antike boats is around, you find
that most of them hardly carry one single piece of the original wood.
I seen a few amatures with absotlutly no experience, end up with the
finest vessels , but the time span when you spend all free time, all
vacations and all your friends and a lot of your money, is around 7 or
8 years when the boat is under 38 feet, you learn a lot and is still
a part of the boating community and underway you make a lot of
bargains and meet a lot of nice people, -------- it's worth all the
trouble.
But with the boat described a better ventilation system that acturly
dry out the boat ,and as pointed by others making sure no leaks occour
is the first step anyway.

Btw, ------ I don't hope this spark a long discussion, but salt do
not, and I must repeat "Do Not" prevent any sort of rot ; it's been
tested in and out, goverment fonds paied experiments that ran for
decades ,it is not a bacteria and rot go into oil soaked mashin rooms
and wood that been "salted" , taking it just as a plesant spice if
there is salt crystals ------- please there are already much salt in
the water and realy wood that you think is preasure treaded is only so
a millimeter into the wood, realy wood is quite a remarkable material
that protect itself even against preasure treadment a known fact. In
the old day's they salted herings and thought salt would presave
anything, it don't and best prove is, that in those times engineers
and scientists went mad becaurse of the public oppinion that salt
could presave wooden ships when everyone could se that thruout
"salted" ships , those acturly carrying salt as cargo , rotted as fast
as any other vessel.
------- But you know herings will last, then wood shuld to ; sure
soaked in water so no oxygen was around but not becaurse of the salt
that just made the nails and bolts rust away in a third the time.

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

On 18 Nov 2003 09:42:42 -0800, (Gerdjan) wrote:


And in case of the Borate solutions I'm wondering or it reacts with
the concrete and the metal inside that?


I have used a US Borax product called Timbor to kill the dry rot
spores or whatever they are and it appears to have no effect on
ferrous or nonferrous components.

Rick

Dear Gerdjan,
We are very interested in taking it over Maud, could you please get it touch with us at my email :
Thanks very much for answering and waiting for your email,
Kend regards,
Arnaud Trambouze