- You did not say if the shipyard was basing the quote on the study plans,
or was going to build from them. There is a huge difference!
- If you want to call it a Bruce Roberts, you MUST buy the rights to use
the design. This may be a little cheaper than buying the complete design
package, but not necessarily.
- re the whole copying thing, my feeling is that for it not to be a copy of
an existing design, it has to have a significant level of "original work".
I don't consider making working drawings from study plans, taking lines off
existing boats, using photographs to reproduce a look-alike to be "original
work".

Conclusion :- if you want a Bruce Roberts, either buy one or pay for the
rights to make one.

David


"GK" wrote in message ...
I am considering to build a Bruce Roberts 370 D.
I have read some pro´s and contra´s concerning his design.
What is your opinion ?

concerning the prices: My very personal opinion is that
the cutting files for the 370 D (!) for about US$ 8 T are overpriced,
as well as to buy the precut steel for about US$ 30 T, only the steel
precut, not the complete steel caso.

I have an offer from a (professional) shipyard which offers me to build
the caso,
based on the 370 D study plans, for less.
What is your opinion about this ?
Is this possible from the technical point of view ?

Thanks,

Fred

If you think it's ok to steal someone's work, then you are probably too
stupid to design the structural detail properly.

Criminals are, generally, deficient in their ability to reason, somehow.
With no respect for others as a result of faulty social thinking, they
demonstrate an inability to think correctly in other areas.

This usually has to do with some shortcoming in the assemblage of certain
other of their sentient organs. The only true salvation for these types is
for them to realize their imperfection, and ask for inspiration to mend
their ways. The Golden rule is all the guidance a reasonable person
needs. Would you want your life's work stolen and abused, modified and
destroyed, capitalized for profit, adulterated from a good design to one
that kills, using your once respected name?

The lines of a vessel are a compromise in engineering intended to balance
strength, efficiency, capacity, durability, and looks. The equation is not
a simple one.

Would you want to wear a cheap, stolen design knock off life jacket, from
inferior cheap materials using inferior cheap manufacture, to save a few
bucks while you top dance for the sharks? How would you feel if it was
your name stamped on such a Knakawf?

If you really want to design a decent boat yourself, you need to take a
bunch of courses in marine engineering.

You will have to pay for those courses too, purchasing the knowlege for
yourself from it's developers, unless you can reason it all out properly
yourself. Stealing a "look" which you will undoubtedly want to sell as the
original some day, sooner than later, if quality has to do with it, is
shameful, a sin and a crime.

Terry K


Terry,,, when someone buys a set of plans for a Roberts boat. Is there
anything wrong with building more than one boat with the same set of plans?

I got to thinking ?? So, say three people split the cost of one set of
plans and start building three boats.

Is that wrong?

I have never built a boat. Are the plans like big paper that you lie on a
board and then mark the board and cut the board? In other words,,,, are the
plans a template? I just wonder what exactly plans look like?

If you know, please post ... curious

The sets of plans that I've bought all state that they include a license "to
build one boat." Building three boats would be theft of two licenses. It's
more like buying an airplane ticket than buying a book.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
news:uDhmf.28$1b.21@trndny03...

If you think it's ok to steal someone's work, then you are probably too
stupid to design the structural detail properly.

Criminals are, generally, deficient in their ability to reason, somehow.
With no respect for others as a result of faulty social thinking, they
demonstrate an inability to think correctly in other areas.

This usually has to do with some shortcoming in the assemblage of certain
other of their sentient organs. The only true salvation for these types
is for them to realize their imperfection, and ask for inspiration to
mend their ways. The Golden rule is all the guidance a reasonable person
needs. Would you want your life's work stolen and abused, modified and
destroyed, capitalized for profit, adulterated from a good design to one
that kills, using your once respected name?

The lines of a vessel are a compromise in engineering intended to balance
strength, efficiency, capacity, durability, and looks. The equation is
not a simple one.

Would you want to wear a cheap, stolen design knock off life jacket, from
inferior cheap materials using inferior cheap manufacture, to save a few
bucks while you top dance for the sharks? How would you feel if it was
your name stamped on such a Knakawf?

If you really want to design a decent boat yourself, you need to take a
bunch of courses in marine engineering.

You will have to pay for those courses too, purchasing the knowlege for
yourself from it's developers, unless you can reason it all out properly
yourself. Stealing a "look" which you will undoubtedly want to sell as
the original some day, sooner than later, if quality has to do with it,
is shameful, a sin and a crime.

Terry K


Terry,,, when someone buys a set of plans for a Roberts boat. Is there
anything wrong with building more than one boat with the same set of
plans?

I got to thinking ?? So, say three people split the cost of one set of
plans and start building three boats.

Is that wrong?

I have never built a boat. Are the plans like big paper that you lie on a
board and then mark the board and cut the board? In other words,,,, are
the plans a template? I just wonder what exactly plans look like?

If you know, please post ... curious

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:44:26 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote:

[Terry]
If you think it's ok to steal someone's work, then you are probably too
stupid to design the structural detail properly.

[Thomas]
...,,, when someone buys a set of plans for a Roberts boat. Is there
anything wrong with building more than one boat with the same set of plans?

I got to thinking ?? So, say three people split the cost of one set of
plans and start building three boats.

Is that wrong?

I have never built a boat. Are the plans like big paper that you lie on a
board and then mark the board and cut the board? In other words,,,, are the
plans a template? I just wonder what exactly plans look like?

If you know, please post ... curious



People ask this question who are unaware of the nature of that
business.

Selling boat (and even more, airplane) plans is a low volume business,
but a business that demands plenty of background and expertise.

Sellers usually note in the terms of sale that the plans are a license
to build one copy. Their contract may allow buyers to sell the
plans on, if they decide against building, but not always.

The designer usually wants to fairly support one builder build one
vessel.

And nobody begrudges them their fee, in general, when they know the
rules of the game

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
If you think it's ok to steal someone's work, then you are probably too
stupid to design the structural detail properly.

Criminals are, generally, deficient in their ability to reason, somehow.
With no respect for others as a result of faulty social thinking, they
demonstrate an inability to think correctly in other areas.

This usually has to do with some shortcoming in the assemblage of certain
other of their sentient organs. The only true salvation for these types is
for them to realize their imperfection, and ask for inspiration to mend
their ways. The Golden rule is all the guidance a reasonable person
needs. Would you want your life's work stolen and abused, modified and
destroyed, capitalized for profit, adulterated from a good design to one
that kills, using your once respected name?

The lines of a vessel are a compromise in engineering intended to balance
strength, efficiency, capacity, durability, and looks. The equation is not
a simple one.

Would you want to wear a cheap, stolen design knock off life jacket, from
inferior cheap materials using inferior cheap manufacture, to save a few
bucks while you top dance for the sharks? How would you feel if it was
your name stamped on such a Knakawf?

If you really want to design a decent boat yourself, you need to take a
bunch of courses in marine engineering.

You will have to pay for those courses too, purchasing the knowlege for
yourself from it's developers, unless you can reason it all out properly
yourself. Stealing a "look" which you will undoubtedly want to sell as the
original some day, sooner than later, if quality has to do with it, is
shameful, a sin and a crime.

Terry K



Terry,,, when someone buys a set of plans for a Roberts boat. Is there
anything wrong with building more than one boat with the same set of plans?

That decision is for the owner of the rights to the plans to decide.
You could negotiate a club discount. Boat building clubs have a
way of falling apart.

I got to thinking ?? So, say three people split the cost of one set of
plans and start building three boats.

Is that wrong?

Could be.


I have never built a boat. Are the plans like big paper that you lie on a
board and then mark the board and cut the board? In other words,,,, are the
plans a template? I just wonder what exactly plans look like?


I can't speak for any of them.

There are options. Some offer full scale templates, some don't need
them. Some will send you a truckload of frame parts pre built, and
other pre assembled bits and rigging, like stem and knee kits. It
depends on how well the service is developed. You may need to find
pieces like a 4 x 8 fir beam 30 feet long knot free, dry as snuff,
as straight as you want the boat to be, later to be cut up and used
for deck beams, spars, etc. If a man can't make a living at it, all
we will have is old plans poorly copied, and no answers to the one
or two questions the seller might omit, to survey the market. How
would you feel if you had a question asked of you by someone with a
bootleg planset covered in notes by 3 previous builders?

Who would bother developing a constructor support business if the
bootleggers are jerry building look alikes and they all sink, or rot
because one limber chamfer was wrong?

Tables of numbers, called offsets, may be used to draw templates or
patterns on wood to be cut. A number of points are plotted on a
board, then a springy batten is used between nails sticking up from
the dots to produce specific curves.

A major milestone in most projects is the turning of the hull or the
mould, as many are built upside down. That may be about halfway
through the building of the hull. Before you start, you will want to
know if the rafters can take it, a point illustrated in some plans.

If in your basement, you may end up with big holes in the living
room floor, and a wall torn out to remove the project to the
outdoors. All a part of a good plan, possibly.

It is said the hull comprises about 10% of the finished boat, but
that depends on whether you like grey paint, and how many satellite
domes you include, etc.

The plans will be perhaps 10% of the hull cost, and if you can't
hack that, you shouldn't even get started, nor should you trust
yourself to ever get finished.

Boat building is for people with good character and tenacity, and
adequate funding and time.

If you are the sort to succeed, my advice won't help you either way.
Nor, if you're not.

Terry K


If you know, please post ... curious

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:32:00 GMT, Dave Allyn
wrote:

Next question: If I took the "look and feel" of one boat off a site,
and reproduced it in hulls, without study plans, only dimentions, and
eye-ball shape from a site, is that wrong?

My 2 cents worth is no. All designs are based at least in part on
what has gone before. What you'd be missing of course is the
engineering and/or naval architecture that might have gone into the
original (admittedly not much in a canoe but probably quite a bit in a
well designed larger boat).

You can pretty safely build a one-off boat that is an exact copy of another,
right down to making your own engine and fittings which are all protected by
patent. But if you try to produce more of them to sell then the owners of
the intellectual rights you are violating will sue the heck out of you.

Would it depend on how unique the "look and feel" were?

I don't remember the outcome, but many, many thousands of dollars were spent
on lawyers when Bill Gates copied the "look and feel" of Apple's operating
system.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:32:00 GMT, Dave Allyn
wrote:

Next question: If I took the "look and feel" of one boat off a site,
and reproduced it in hulls, without study plans, only dimentions, and
eye-ball shape from a site, is that wrong?

My 2 cents worth is no. All designs are based at least in part on
what has gone before. What you'd be missing of course is the
engineering and/or naval architecture that might have gone into the
original (admittedly not much in a canoe but probably quite a bit in a
well designed larger boat).

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:45:09 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Next question: If I took the "look and feel" of one boat off a site,
and reproduced it in hulls, without study plans, only dimentions, and
eye-ball shape from a site, is that wrong?

My 2 cents worth is no. All designs are based at least in part on
what has gone before. What you'd be missing of course is the
engineering and/or naval architecture that might have gone into the
original (admittedly not much in a canoe but probably quite a bit in a
well designed larger boat).

FWIW, the following is an extract from a summary of the much maligned
Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA). Other summaries vary
somewhat. As explained to me, it's the shape of the hull that's
protected, not engineering details. The theory seems to be that the
shape of a hull is so important to the function and appearance of the
vessel that it should be protected over and above the protection
accorded to the plans. IANAL, so further deponent sayeth not. But I
am sure the devil is in the details of the legislation.

"Title V of the DMCA, entitled the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act
(VHDPA), adds a new chapter 13 to Title 17 of the U.S. Code. It
creates a new system for protecting original designs of certain useful
articles that make the article attractive or distinctive in
appearance. For purposes of the VHDPA, “useful articles” are limited
to the hulls (including the decks) of vessels no longer than 200 feet.
A design is protected under the VHDPA as soon as a useful article
embodying the design is made public or a registration for the design
is published. "


__________________________________________________ __________
Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com
To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious.

Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and
logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/

I happened to read this weekend that the Clipper Ships of Portsmouth NH were
built without plans.

The shipbuilder did it all in his head.

So much for arguments about plans, etc.

=====================


"GK" wrote in message ...
I am considering to build a Bruce Roberts 370 D.
I have read some pro´s and contra´s concerning his design.
What is your opinion ?

concerning the prices: My very personal opinion is that
the cutting files for the 370 D (!) for about US$ 8 T are overpriced,
as well as to buy the precut steel for about US$ 30 T, only the steel
precut, not the complete steel caso.

I have an offer from a (professional) shipyard which offers me to build
the caso,
based on the 370 D study plans, for less.
What is your opinion about this ?
Is this possible from the technical point of view ?

Thanks,

Fred