I am looking to build a cedar strip boat to use around home in Portland
Oregon and to tow around as a tender when Sailing in the San Juan's.
I like the looks of the Newfound Wherry with its ability to sail and
row. http://www.newfound.com/wherry.htm It just doesn't look too much
fun to sail into the wind. Does anyone know of a similar design that is
sloop rigged and about the same size? Is it possible to change the sail
design to a Marconi rig on this one? Or am I just asking too much from
a small boat?

By coincidence, I just finished re-reading the Yachting Monthly article on
"The Fastest Rig" (July 1984). According to their tests using identical
hulls and rigs with identical sail area, the sprit rig was the fastest on
all points of sail. To windward, it was 30% faster than the
Bermudian/Marconi. Only the lateen was poorer than the Bermuda rig which
survives (dominates) because of the racing rules. (And the lateen was as
good in light airs.)

I'd suggest you give the rig shown for the Newfound Wherry a chance before
deciding it won't go to windward.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
wrote in message
oups.com...
I am looking to build a cedar strip boat to use around home in Portland
Oregon and to tow around as a tender when Sailing in the San Juan's.
I like the looks of the Newfound Wherry with its ability to sail and
row. http://www.newfound.com/wherry.htm It just doesn't look too much
fun to sail into the wind. Does anyone know of a similar design that is
sloop rigged and about the same size? Is it possible to change the sail
design to a Marconi rig on this one? Or am I just asking too much from
a small boat?

"derbyrm" ) writes:
By coincidence, I just finished re-reading the Yachting Monthly article on
"The Fastest Rig" (July 1984). According to their tests using identical
hulls and rigs with identical sail area, the sprit rig was the fastest on
all points of sail. To windward, it was 30% faster than the
Bermudian/Marconi. Only the lateen was poorer than the Bermuda rig which
survives (dominates) because of the racing rules. (And the lateen was as
good in light airs.)

Wind tunnel tests in the UK showed the lateen rig to be the least
efficient. It's efficiency depends a lot on the angle of the top spar.
Almost verticle is best. The tests showed the crab claw to be the most
powerful sail (actually works like a kite not an aerofoil) but it's
difficlut to manage in narrow waters and shifting winds. The bermuda sloop
rig (high aspect marconi version) was the most efficient overall due to
better sailing to windward. IFRC the sprit and gunter were about the same.
The experiments were done by a famous Poish Finn (an oxymoron?) sailor who
has gone on to study sails but I can't remember his name just now. He has
written research papers and popular books on sails.

One thing that greatly affects a sail's efficiency is the leading edge. A
mast sleeve helps because it minimizes turbulance at the leading edge.

A lot of times sails were chosen for other reasons, eg ease of handling
or cost.

BTW it's called "marconi" after early radio antenna towers built by the
inventor Marconi. The high aspect bermuda rigs had to be stayed like his
radio towers.

Some points made in the Yachting Monthly article:

1) using identical hulls (catamarans) and identical total sail area, they
raced the Bermuda rig head-to-head with each of the other rigs. The course
was laid out to provide all points of sail and was in sheltered water. The
crews were each attempting to get the best from their rigs, but were
cooperative rather than competitive. (No tacking to cover. Lots of room at
the mark.)

2) each rig had a small jib added to provide "slot effect" (except the
lateen)

3) the sprit and gaff rigs utilized vangs to prevent the twist that does
penalize performance

4) the triangle plan form is notoriously less efficient than the rectangle

I think the Bermuda is much over-rated. To say that it goes to windward
better is contrary to the tests described in the article and reinforces the
idea that efficiency means "wins races" rather than "gets where we want to
go best for the least cost and effort." The polar plots were quite
dramatically different and I speak neither Polish nor Finnish. Note that
the typical Bermuda racing rig involves Genoas with a large overlap, not
because this provides the best knots/square foot of sail, but because it is
"free" area under the rules.

Of course simpler rigs don't provide a market for all of the very pricey
"go-fast" gadgets. http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d90000/e87451.asp (my
candidate for a "little shop of horrors")

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
"derbyrm" ) writes:
By coincidence, I just finished re-reading the Yachting Monthly article
on
"The Fastest Rig" (July 1984). According to their tests using identical
hulls and rigs with identical sail area, the sprit rig was the fastest on
all points of sail. To windward, it was 30% faster than the
Bermudian/Marconi. Only the lateen was poorer than the Bermuda rig which
survives (dominates) because of the racing rules. (And the lateen was as
good in light airs.)

Wind tunnel tests in the UK showed the lateen rig to be the least
efficient. It's efficiency depends a lot on the angle of the top spar.
Almost verticle is best. The tests showed the crab claw to be the most
powerful sail (actually works like a kite not an aerofoil) but it's
difficlut to manage in narrow waters and shifting winds. The bermuda sloop
rig (high aspect marconi version) was the most efficient overall due to
better sailing to windward. IFRC the sprit and gunter were about the same.
The experiments were done by a famous Poish Finn (an oxymoron?) sailor who
has gone on to study sails but I can't remember his name just now. He has
written research papers and popular books on sails.

One thing that greatly affects a sail's efficiency is the leading edge. A
mast sleeve helps because it minimizes turbulance at the leading edge.

A lot of times sails were chosen for other reasons, eg ease of handling
or cost.

BTW it's called "marconi" after early radio antenna towers built by the
inventor Marconi. The high aspect bermuda rigs had to be stayed like his
radio towers.

derbyrm wrote:
Some points made in the Yachting Monthly article:

1) using identical hulls (catamarans) and identical total sail area, they
raced the Bermuda rig head-to-head with each of the other rigs. The course
was laid out to provide all points of sail and was in sheltered water. The
crews were each attempting to get the best from their rigs, but were
cooperative rather than competitive. (No tacking to cover. Lots of room at
the mark.)

2) each rig had a small jib added to provide "slot effect" (except the
lateen)

3) the sprit and gaff rigs utilized vangs to prevent the twist that does
penalize performance

4) the triangle plan form is notoriously less efficient than the rectangle

I think the Bermuda is much over-rated. To say that it goes to windward
better is contrary to the tests described in the article and reinforces the
idea that efficiency means "wins races" rather than "gets where we want to
go best for the least cost and effort." The polar plots were quite
dramatically different and I speak neither Polish nor Finnish. Note that
the typical Bermuda racing rig involves Genoas with a large overlap, not
because this provides the best knots/square foot of sail, but because it is
"free" area under the rules.

Of course simpler rigs don't provide a market for all of the very pricey
"go-fast" gadgets. http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d90000/e87451.asp (my
candidate for a "little shop of horrors")

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
"derbyrm" ) writes:
By coincidence, I just finished re-reading the Yachting Monthly article
on
"The Fastest Rig" (July 1984). According to their tests using identical
hulls and rigs with identical sail area, the sprit rig was the fastest on
all points of sail. To windward, it was 30% faster than the
Bermudian/Marconi. Only the lateen was poorer than the Bermuda rig which
survives (dominates) because of the racing rules. (And the lateen was as
good in light airs.)

Wind tunnel tests in the UK showed the lateen rig to be the least
efficient. It's efficiency depends a lot on the angle of the top spar.
Almost verticle is best. The tests showed the crab claw to be the most
powerful sail (actually works like a kite not an aerofoil) but it's
difficlut to manage in narrow waters and shifting winds. The bermuda sloop
rig (high aspect marconi version) was the most efficient overall due to
better sailing to windward. IFRC the sprit and gunter were about the same.
The experiments were done by a famous Poish Finn (an oxymoron?) sailor who
has gone on to study sails but I can't remember his name just now. He has
written research papers and popular books on sails.

One thing that greatly affects a sail's efficiency is the leading edge. A
mast sleeve helps because it minimizes turbulance at the leading edge.

A lot of times sails were chosen for other reasons, eg ease of handling
or cost.

BTW it's called "marconi" after early radio antenna towers built by the
inventor Marconi. The high aspect bermuda rigs had to be stayed like his
radio towers.

Can you describe the Sprit Rig, and can you effectively use a small jib
with it? We will start building in Jan, I like the simplicity and
appearance of the cedar strip, but actually like fiddling around while
sailing.
I like Rogers attitude about the rig, but wouldn't mind making a
change if it would mean a little better performance.

I've sent the image from to you off-group. For others who may be
interested, it is a very small jib with its halyard to the masthead and the
tack taken to a bridle between the two hulls. (They used catamarans.)
Overlap looks like less than 10%, and its hoist was about half that of the
mainsail.

I suspect the use of vangs contributed heavily to the surprising results. I
plan to try them on my Chebacco when (no, not if) it hits the water.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
wrote in message
oups.com...

derbyrm wrote:
Some points made in the Yachting Monthly article:

1) using identical hulls (catamarans) and identical total sail area,
they
raced the Bermuda rig head-to-head with each of the other rigs. The
course
was laid out to provide all points of sail and was in sheltered water.
The
crews were each attempting to get the best from their rigs, but were
cooperative rather than competitive. (No tacking to cover. Lots of room
at
the mark.)

2) each rig had a small jib added to provide "slot effect" (except the
lateen)

3) the sprit and gaff rigs utilized vangs to prevent the twist that does
penalize performance

4) the triangle plan form is notoriously less efficient than the
rectangle

I think the Bermuda is much over-rated. To say that it goes to windward
better is contrary to the tests described in the article and reinforces
the
idea that efficiency means "wins races" rather than "gets where we want
to
go best for the least cost and effort." The polar plots were quite
dramatically different and I speak neither Polish nor Finnish. Note that
the typical Bermuda racing rig involves Genoas with a large overlap, not
because this provides the best knots/square foot of sail, but because it
is
"free" area under the rules.

Of course simpler rigs don't provide a market for all of the very pricey
"go-fast" gadgets. http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d90000/e87451.asp (my
candidate for a "little shop of horrors")

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
"derbyrm" ) writes:
By coincidence, I just finished re-reading the Yachting Monthly
article
on
"The Fastest Rig" (July 1984). According to their tests using
identical
hulls and rigs with identical sail area, the sprit rig was the fastest
on
all points of sail. To windward, it was 30% faster than the
Bermudian/Marconi. Only the lateen was poorer than the Bermuda rig
which
survives (dominates) because of the racing rules. (And the lateen was
as
good in light airs.)

Wind tunnel tests in the UK showed the lateen rig to be the least
efficient. It's efficiency depends a lot on the angle of the top spar.
Almost verticle is best. The tests showed the crab claw to be the most
powerful sail (actually works like a kite not an aerofoil) but it's
difficlut to manage in narrow waters and shifting winds. The bermuda
sloop
rig (high aspect marconi version) was the most efficient overall due to
better sailing to windward. IFRC the sprit and gunter were about the
same.
The experiments were done by a famous Poish Finn (an oxymoron?) sailor
who
has gone on to study sails but I can't remember his name just now. He
has
written research papers and popular books on sails.

One thing that greatly affects a sail's efficiency is the leading edge.
A
mast sleeve helps because it minimizes turbulance at the leading edge.

A lot of times sails were chosen for other reasons, eg ease of handling
or cost.

BTW it's called "marconi" after early radio antenna towers built by the
inventor Marconi. The high aspect bermuda rigs had to be stayed like
his
radio towers.

Can you describe the Sprit Rig, and can you effectively use a small jib
with it? We will start building in Jan, I like the simplicity and
appearance of the cedar strip, but actually like fiddling around while
sailing.
I like Rogers attitude about the rig, but wouldn't mind making a
change if it would mean a little better performance.

Can you describe the Sprit Rig,

Do a search of the Internet for photos and diagrams.
Look at the photo of the Dobler skiff at www.jonesboats.com.
Look under sprit sails on my website www.ncf.ca/~ag384/Boats.htm.

and can you effectively use a small jib
with it?

Yes but the jib doesn't get you much except complexity on a small boat.

wrote:
derbyrm wrote:

Some points made in the Yachting Monthly article:

1) using identical hulls (catamarans) and identical total sail area, they
raced the Bermuda rig head-to-head with each of the other rigs. The course
was laid out to provide all points of sail and was in sheltered water. The
crews were each attempting to get the best from their rigs, but were
cooperative rather than competitive. (No tacking to cover. Lots of room at
the mark.)

2) each rig had a small jib added to provide "slot effect" (except the
lateen)

3) the sprit and gaff rigs utilized vangs to prevent the twist that does
penalize performance

4) the triangle plan form is notoriously less efficient than the rectangle

I think the Bermuda is much over-rated. To say that it goes to windward
better is contrary to the tests described in the article and reinforces the
idea that efficiency means "wins races" rather than "gets where we want to
go best for the least cost and effort." The polar plots were quite
dramatically different and I speak neither Polish nor Finnish. Note that
the typical Bermuda racing rig involves Genoas with a large overlap, not
because this provides the best knots/square foot of sail, but because it is
"free" area under the rules.

Of course simpler rigs don't provide a market for all of the very pricey
"go-fast" gadgets. http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d90000/e87451.asp (my
candidate for a "little shop of horrors")

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"derbyrm" ) writes:

By coincidence, I just finished re-reading the Yachting Monthly article
on
"The Fastest Rig" (July 1984). According to their tests using identical
hulls and rigs with identical sail area, the sprit rig was the fastest on
all points of sail. To windward, it was 30% faster than the
Bermudian/Marconi. Only the lateen was poorer than the Bermuda rig which
survives (dominates) because of the racing rules. (And the lateen was as
good in light airs.)

Wind tunnel tests in the UK showed the lateen rig to be the least
efficient. It's efficiency depends a lot on the angle of the top spar.
Almost verticle is best. The tests showed the crab claw to be the most
powerful sail (actually works like a kite not an aerofoil) but it's
difficlut to manage in narrow waters and shifting winds. The bermuda sloop
rig (high aspect marconi version) was the most efficient overall due to
better sailing to windward. IFRC the sprit and gunter were about the same.
The experiments were done by a famous Poish Finn (an oxymoron?) sailor who
has gone on to study sails but I can't remember his name just now. He has
written research papers and popular books on sails.

One thing that greatly affects a sail's efficiency is the leading edge. A
mast sleeve helps because it minimizes turbulance at the leading edge.

A lot of times sails were chosen for other reasons, eg ease of handling
or cost.

BTW it's called "marconi" after early radio antenna towers built by the
inventor Marconi. The high aspect bermuda rigs had to be stayed like his
radio towers.


Can you describe the Sprit Rig, and can you effectively use a small jib
with it? We will start building in Jan, I like the simplicity and
appearance of the cedar strip, but actually like fiddling around while
sailing.
I like Rogers attitude about the rig, but wouldn't mind making a
change if it would mean a little better performance.


A lower effort of heeling centre would be one reason to use any low
rig in a canoe or kayak.

I wonder if a marconi mast could do better if tried with a more
square sail, with the top cut off of a main too large for the
backstay, a longer boom, and a batten spar car hoisted a little
below the tack of the sail. Attacked to the sail's peak and
trimmed close to car, it could affect the curvature of the sail at
it's top. The backstay could be disconnected and seized to the mast
base, freeing the leach of what could be a schooner sized sail. With
a vang at the bottom and a spar at the top, it may well be a
superior rig to the marconi sail, inside a backstay. Some boats will
balance well this way, especially if they have a history of too much
weather helm.

The sail itself will take the strain of the absent backstay, and a
jib flown low on a cutter stay could be accommodated. The spar might
cause the mast to curve one way or another, depending on how high
the sail is carried. When high, a foot or two above the spreaders,
it would fatten the sail, and when low and reefed at the foot, a
foot or two below the spreaders, would flatten it. A topping lift
attached to the sail tack would beef up the backstay function for
scaredy cats who might feel better with a backstay substitute. Two
could be made self adjusting if fed back to the boom as vangs and
preventers capable of ensuring the main never touches the lower
shrouds. They would be set and forget.

If this rig was found suitable in all conditions except racing, the
mast could then be shortened. You might find yourself passing boats
with smaller ior rating penalties.

If I had a big old tall main to butcher, I might try it.

The batten spar, or two smaller wishbone style battens for balanced
tacking sail shape, would hang between the sail peak and the car in
the sail track. It could be trimmed from the cockpit, even in line
with the halyard.

It would contribute to weight aloft, which might be balanced by
shortening the mast and even downsizing or eliminating the spreaders.

A longer boom could be accommodated with the marconi backstay
disconnected.

Sure. The further away from the triangular plan form and the closer to the
elliptical, the better. The sprit's rectangle proved a better approach in
these trials. Note: the sprit used was not a low aspect ratio sail.

Another approach to the elliptical is provided by the use of battans.

Keep on with this line of thinking and you'll get to the gaff rig which was
also superior to the jib headed main in the trials.

IMHO the backstay is for 1) running or 2) providing most of the thrust via
the headsails.

As I've said before, you can't push a rope, nor any but the most extreme
varieties of sailcloth. The load put on the mast by the mainsail is aft.
(I like Chappelle's "Hampton Flattie" which uses the halyard as a forestay;
its only standing rigging.)

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
.. .

A lower effort of heeling centre would be one reason to use any low rig in
a canoe or kayak.

I wonder if a marconi mast could do better if tried with a more square
sail, with the top cut off of a main too large for the backstay, a longer
boom, and a batten spar car hoisted a little below the tack of the sail.
Attacked to the sail's peak and trimmed close to car, it could affect the
curvature of the sail at it's top. The backstay could be disconnected and
seized to the mast base, freeing the leach of what could be a schooner
sized sail. With a vang at the bottom and a spar at the top, it may well
be a superior rig to the marconi sail, inside a backstay. Some boats will
balance well this way, especially if they have a history of too much
weather helm.

The sail itself will take the strain of the absent backstay, and a jib
flown low on a cutter stay could be accommodated. The spar might cause the
mast to curve one way or another, depending on how high the sail is
carried. When high, a foot or two above the spreaders, it would fatten the
sail, and when low and reefed at the foot, a foot or two below the
spreaders, would flatten it. A topping lift attached to the sail tack
would beef up the backstay function for scaredy cats who might feel better
with a backstay substitute. Two could be made self adjusting if fed back
to the boom as vangs and preventers capable of ensuring the main never
touches the lower shrouds. They would be set and forget.

If this rig was found suitable in all conditions except racing, the mast
could then be shortened. You might find yourself passing boats with
smaller ior rating penalties.

If I had a big old tall main to butcher, I might try it.

The batten spar, or two smaller wishbone style battens for balanced
tacking sail shape, would hang between the sail peak and the car in the
sail track. It could be trimmed from the cockpit, even in line with the
halyard.

It would contribute to weight aloft, which might be balanced by shortening
the mast and even downsizing or eliminating the spreaders.

A longer boom could be accommodated with the marconi backstay
disconnected.

Hi:

Had a 16' sailing dory with a sprit and jib for years. Could step the
mast forward and use as a cat rig. No stays. Suggest getting the book
by H.I. Chappell, titled American Small Sailing Craft. It will have
every detail you need. Since you're in Portland OR do as most of us
did. Find an old trolling poll off a salmon troller and cut it to fit
for your mast. Try Astoria or Newport. You'll find a few laying
overgrown with grass around the parking lots next to the docks. Lavish
with pine tar and turpentine. Don't let the splits bother you. I
remember there were some hippies in the 1970s cutting Doug Fir polls in
southern Oregon and selling for spars. Very organic. Or find a 1950-60s
ranch homes being remolded. Ask for two 8' studs. The houses were
framed with old growth Doug Fir. What a waste.... Epoxy two together
and shape for your mast.