Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any experience out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken

"KR & CA Hunter" ) writes:

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

people have reported in this newsgroup using hot melt glue. apparently
anything which holds the strips together until the fibreglass can be
applied is suitable. however the hull has to be scraped or sanded smooth
before the fibreglass goes on. some glues will just clog sandpaper. I
haven't read anything about how to smooth a hull glued with hot melt glue.

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homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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Liquid Nails is the default 'builders adhesive' in these parts too (Oregon,
USA), although I can't say I'm an expert at building a stripper canoe.
Never have done it yet. Liquid nails is a snotty yellow color rather than
clear, so a test run on a couple of edge-glued cedar planks that you then
scrape or sand to see how it appears is probably in order.

The other person who responded suggested hot melt glue too. While handy and
I believe it works most of the time, I had a friend that used it on his
canoe and the strips were popping apart where the curves were stronger.
Your mileage may vary. Traditional method is to use staples, but that
leaves tiny holes in the wood.

You know what you might want to do? Go to the Bear Mountain Boats forum
also and see what those builders have to say. The URL for bear mountain is
http://www.bearmountainboats.com and click the link to the Builder's Forum
(no affiliation on my part.)

Best of luck to you.

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"KR & CA Hunter" wrote in message
...
Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any experience
out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken

I just cannot believe how many people will do ANYTHING to avoid spending
$50 for some epoxy. Enough 1/4" clear cedar strip for a decent size
dinghy or canoe will cost you at least $500.00. Do you really want to
risk that investment and your labor to save $40 or $50?

The strips are not there just to hold the glass. They provide
longitudinal stiffness. They must transfer shear loads between the two
composite skins. And they must spread impact loads. Individual strips
are not capable of doing any of those things. They have to be well
bonded together so they can act in unison. Hot melt glue is not going to
that. Liquid Nails might hold the strips together but the assembly will
not be very stiff and fairing will be a royal PITA.

You need a glue that maintains a tight stiff bond in a varying width
glue line (gap filling), does not require high clamping pressure and
that can be sanded fair without gumming up the paper. There is only one
glue commonly available to amateur boat builders that will do that: Epoxy.

Thickened epoxy is gap filling, bonds extremely well, requires minimal
clamping pressure so staples are all that is needed and it fairs cleanly.

Resorcinol would be a second choice. It would be a little less costly
but requires careful fitting to eliminate any gaps and a lot of clamping
pressure. Staples will not do it. You could only add one strip to each
side per day. Same with polyurethanes only your total cost will be more
than epoxy.

There are people on this newsgroup that will advocate anything from
wallpaper paste to curtain liner to save money but trying to save $50 on
adheasive on a $700 project is penny wise and pound foolish.

KR & CA Hunter wrote:
Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any experience out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

It depends on whet kind of cedar strip construction.
If the boat is 'cedar strip composite', where there are structural glass skins,
the bond between the strips is not important. The strip are simply a core,
loaded in sheer. In this case, convenience and appraeance are what matters.
Yellow wood glue is commonly used. I prefer Titebond over Titebond II. It's
more easily sanded.

If the boat is of traditional strip plank construction, without structural
skins, the bonds between the planks are structurally important and should be
waterproof. Use epoxy or resorcinol.

KR & CA Hunter wrote:

Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any experience out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken

Glenn Ashmore ) writes:
I just cannot believe how many people will do ANYTHING to avoid spending
$50 for some epoxy. Enough 1/4" clear cedar strip for a decent size

cedar is very soft, epoxy is very hard. the cedar strips are very thin and
flexible. not a good fairing combo. I don't think epoxy is ever a good
choice for soft wood which has to be smoothed when set. Platt Monfort uses
it on his skin over frame boats but the ribs and stingers don't form the
hull surface like the stips in a stripper boat.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Jim Conlin wrote:
It depends on whet kind of cedar strip construction.
If the boat is 'cedar strip composite', where there are structural glass skins,
the bond between the strips is not important. The strip are simply a core,
loaded in sheer. In this case, convenience and appraeance are what matters.
Yellow wood glue is commonly used. I prefer Titebond over Titebond II. It's
more easily sanded.

I am afraid that is a major and very common misconception. I spent
quite a bit of time investigating strip composite construction before
committing to it for my hull. Besides the specifications from my
designer, I read everything I could find on the subject from Nicholson
to Gougeon to McNaughton. I also built several sample panels using
various construction methods and laminate schedules and tested them on a
CE friends precision testing press and various soak tests.

Some things I learned that need to be considered:

#1 The core needs to be as monolithic as possible. It is an important
component of a structural member. The larger the hull or the thinner the
core, the more critical it becomes. Stresses need to be transferred
between the skins as evenly as possible. If the core adhesive yields at
a lower pressure than the core material stress points develop at the
seams. While it may not be structurally critical these stress points
make maintaining a fair high gloss surface impossible.

#2 Laminating resins (including epoxy) are not totally waterproof.
While I was not able to get the MC up to the point that it would induce
rot spores, it did get high enough to weaken non-water resistant glues
like Tightbond.

3# The lighter the construction, the more important core integrity
becomes. At one extreme a glass sheathed stripper canoe or dinghy will
carry 90% of the stress in the core while a big hull like mine will
carry less than 50% in the core. In either case, scrimping on the strip
adhesive is false economy.

There is no real black and white in boat building. It is all shades of
gray made up of compromises. You can spend many hours and millions of
dollars trying to find a better way and still end up with a hull that
splits wide open with a little to much backstay tension. You can go
your own way, scrimping on costs and end up with a throw away boat or
you can follow proven modern construction techniques, save a lot of
effort and have a safe durable hull.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"KR & CA Hunter" wrote in message
...
Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any experience
out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken


I just use the woodworkers PVA glue on my strip kayaks. It cleans up with a
wet sponge prior to setting, sets clear, is easy to sand down if needed.
However it will not hold without a clamp or staples until dried. Once dried
it will hold the strips in complex curves - I was surprised at first just
how the whole kayak shape stayed snug onto the mould when I removed the
staples. Once covered in epoxy and glass it does not really matter what glue
was used between the strips.

If you are desperate not to staple there are a few designs for clamps, or
just buy some shares in Gaffer Tape and use rolls of it to pull the planks
tight. I find that the staple holes close up and are so small as to be
almost invisible unless you go looking.

IMHO avoid using epoxy as the gluing medium - its too hard and when you fair
the hull/deck you'll end up with ridges where the cedar sands down faster
than the epoxy.

Have a look at www.oneoceankayaks.com which has an enormous amount of detail
on wood strip construction, epoxy, glassing.

--
www.bribieisland4x4hire.com
VW Kombi Camper Buy Backs
Landcruiser Troopy - Toyota Hilux Crew Cab
Mitsubishi Pajero - Landrover V8 Swag Camper

Glen and all,
Would you agree that the Gougeon Brother's On Boat construction book,
when discussing wood strip composites, talks only about small boats,
canoes,etc? I think they mentioned that further research was needed
and you have apparently done some of that.
Also, MacNaughtons are the only people that I am aware who have done any
published work on scaling up the scantlings that the Gougeons initially
offered. I'm curious to know if there are any other published testing
data that you know of?

When scaling up to thicker strips, edge nailing is frequently used to
hold things in place. I think MacNaughton mentions that the nails are
not a structural element in the finished monocoque shell.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. But I just wonder how
scaling from a canoe with a 1/4 inch strip thickness translates to a
larger boat of, say, 3/4 inch thickness. It seems that most of the
larger strip built boats have structural bulkheads which may come into play.

Possibly bead and cove milling, rather than square edge strips might add
enough sheer load resistance to warrant using yellow glue.
My preference on small boats is to use epoxy with micro balloons to make
sanding easier. Without the microballons the epoxy is harder than the
cedar and is difficult to sand fair.
But yellow glue works too and, at least on small boats, it is faster
then waiting for epoxy to kick so you can lay more strips in a session.
I've also tried powdered Plastic Resin glue but never had much luck with
it since it does not really bridge gaps too well.
Titebond II is definitely a Royal PITA to sand.Too rubbery.
On one small boat I built I used epoxy to edge glue the strips. The hull
seems very stiff and strong. But I have cracked the hull when hitting a
rock. On another small boat I built I used yellow glue and the hull
seems more flexible and has a "dead" sound when tapped. But I have never
cracked this hull even though I've given it some rough use. It's also
only 3/16 inch thick. Mabey flexibility is a good thing.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I just cannot believe how many people will do ANYTHING to avoid spending
$50 for some epoxy. Enough 1/4" clear cedar strip for a decent size
dinghy or canoe will cost you at least $500.00. Do you really want to
risk that investment and your labor to save $40 or $50?

The strips are not there just to hold the glass. They provide
longitudinal stiffness. They must transfer shear loads between the two
composite skins. And they must spread impact loads. Individual strips
are not capable of doing any of those things. They have to be well
bonded together so they can act in unison. Hot melt glue is not going to
that. Liquid Nails might hold the strips together but the assembly will
not be very stiff and fairing will be a royal PITA.

You need a glue that maintains a tight stiff bond in a varying width
glue line (gap filling), does not require high clamping pressure and
that can be sanded fair without gumming up the paper. There is only one
glue commonly available to amateur boat builders that will do that: Epoxy.

Thickened epoxy is gap filling, bonds extremely well, requires minimal
clamping pressure so staples are all that is needed and it fairs cleanly.

Resorcinol would be a second choice. It would be a little less costly
but requires careful fitting to eliminate any gaps and a lot of clamping
pressure. Staples will not do it. You could only add one strip to each
side per day. Same with polyurethanes only your total cost will be more
than epoxy.

There are people on this newsgroup that will advocate anything from
wallpaper paste to curtain liner to save money but trying to save $50 on
adheasive on a $700 project is penny wise and pound foolish.

KR & CA Hunter wrote:

Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but
they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any
experience out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken

Glen and all,
Would you agree that the Gougeon Brother's On Boat construction book,
when discussing wood strip composites, talks only about small boats,
canoes,etc? I think they mentioned that further research was needed
and you have apparently done some of that.
Also, MacNaughtons are the only people that I am aware who have done any
published work on scaling up the scantlings that the Gougeons initially
offered. I'm curious to know if there are any other published testing
data that you know of?

When scaling up to thicker strips, edge nailing is frequently used to
hold things in place. I think MacNaughton mentions that the nails are
not a structural element in the finished monocoque shell.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. But I just wonder how
scaling from a canoe with a 1/4 inch strip thickness translates to a
larger boat of, say, 3/4 inch thickness. It seems that most of the
larger strip built boats have structural bulkheads which may come into play.

Possibly bead and cove milling, rather than square edge strips might add
enough sheer load resistance to warrant using yellow glue.
My preference on small boats is to use epoxy with micro balloons to make
sanding easier. Without the microballons the epoxy is harder than the
cedar and is difficult to sand fair.
But yellow glue works too and, at least on small boats, it is faster
then waiting for epoxy to kick so you can lay more strips in a session.
I've also tried powdered Plastic Resin glue but never had much luck with
it since it does not really bridge gaps too well.
Titebond II is definitely a Royal PITA to sand.Too rubbery.
On one small boat I built I used epoxy to edge glue the strips. The hull
seems very stiff and strong. But I have cracked the hull when hitting a
rock. On another small boat I built I used yellow glue and the hull
seems more flexible and has a "dead" sound when tapped. But I have never
cracked this hull even though I've given it some rough use. It's also
only 3/16 inch thick. Mabey flexibility is a good thing.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I just cannot believe how many people will do ANYTHING to avoid spending
$50 for some epoxy. Enough 1/4" clear cedar strip for a decent size
dinghy or canoe will cost you at least $500.00. Do you really want to
risk that investment and your labor to save $40 or $50?

The strips are not there just to hold the glass. They provide
longitudinal stiffness. They must transfer shear loads between the two
composite skins. And they must spread impact loads. Individual strips
are not capable of doing any of those things. They have to be well
bonded together so they can act in unison. Hot melt glue is not going to
that. Liquid Nails might hold the strips together but the assembly will
not be very stiff and fairing will be a royal PITA.

You need a glue that maintains a tight stiff bond in a varying width
glue line (gap filling), does not require high clamping pressure and
that can be sanded fair without gumming up the paper. There is only one
glue commonly available to amateur boat builders that will do that: Epoxy.

Thickened epoxy is gap filling, bonds extremely well, requires minimal
clamping pressure so staples are all that is needed and it fairs cleanly.

Resorcinol would be a second choice. It would be a little less costly
but requires careful fitting to eliminate any gaps and a lot of clamping
pressure. Staples will not do it. You could only add one strip to each
side per day. Same with polyurethanes only your total cost will be more
than epoxy.

There are people on this newsgroup that will advocate anything from
wallpaper paste to curtain liner to save money but trying to save $50 on
adheasive on a $700 project is penny wise and pound foolish.

KR & CA Hunter wrote:

Has anybody bought and built from a Compumarine plan? If so, could you
advise your experiences? I would like my next boat project to be a cedar
strip row/power boat and the John Clark plans look Ok on the web, but
they
seem a bit expensive for what are essentially a set of hull templates.

Also, can anybody advise on what type(s) of glue are suitable for cedar
strip construction. Builders adhesive has been suggested. Here in
Australia the "Liquid Nails" product is sometimes referred to as builders
glue. Does anyone know whether this is the same product?

I would prefer to build without fasteners if possible, so any
experience out
there would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ken