Hello All,

I wonder if you all would mind giving me the benefit of your opinions.
I am making my first kayak. It will be for my daughter. She's 12
years old, but small for her age (56 inches tall, 67 lbs.), and
although she is growing, she looks alot like her Mother and we believe
she will remain of slight stature and "lightweight."

My daughter's only kayaking experience has been with heavy plastic
boats which have been altogether too much for her to handle. She had
trouble paddling and steering them and although she had a great time
anyway, she was somewhat discouraged about not being able to keep up
with our group.

The waters in which we will be paddling are salt marsh estuaries.
There are rarely ever significant waves, but the currents can be
strong and the wind kicks up in the afternoons sometimes. None of us
in my family is an experienced kayaker; we are newbies who want to
learn more. We have borrowed and rented plastic boats in the past,
and we've all gotten by OK with them, except my littlest one, who has
struggled because, I believe, the boats have been too big and/or heavy
for her.

I have narrowed my choices to two alternative Pygmy kits: the Osprey
13 or the Arctic Tern 14. I was leaning towards the Osprey because it
is shorter (by about 12 inches) and lighter (by about 6 pounds). I
felt these were significant differences for such a small paddler.

However, I called Pygmy last week, and the gentleman with whom I spoke
steered me towards the Arctic Tern. He felt that it "handled" better
and would be much easier for my daughter to steer, etc. He felt that
this handling advantage more than compensated for the additional size
and weight.

I am now inclined to heed his advice, but I wonder if anyone can add
anything useful? If it matters: I have no boatbuilding experience but
lots of woodworking experience (furniture) and a decent shop with a
tablesaw, bandsaw etc (not that it looks like you need any of these
tools to build these kits).

Thank you all for any insights you can provide. I appreciate your
experience.

Brad

When I was a kid I built one of Percy Blandford's designs - the PBK10
This is a canvas over wood frame kayak that's 11 feet long.
The plans are still available from NY state.

11 feet is about as short as a kid's kayak should get, probably - but
it is a beamy design, and so quite stable.
This didn't prevent me from fooling about and tipping me and a
passenger into the water.
Anyway, canvas should not be anybody's first choice of cover - except
a traditionalist.
I expect the design you are considering is a ply stitch and tape?
I have seen some beautiful looking current examples - but they are not
cheap as precut kits.
That's what I have....

Brian W

On 5 Jan 2004 09:33:39 -0800, (brad) wrote:

Hello All,

I wonder if you all would mind giving me the benefit of your opinions.
I am making my first kayak. It will be for my daughter. She's 12
years old, but small for her age (56 inches tall, 67 lbs.), and
although she is growing, she looks alot like her Mother and we believe
she will remain of slight stature and "lightweight."

My daughter's only kayaking experience has been with heavy plastic
boats which have been altogether too much for her to handle. She had
trouble paddling and steering them and although she had a great time
anyway, she was somewhat discouraged about not being able to keep up
with our group.

The waters in which we will be paddling are salt marsh estuaries.
There are rarely ever significant waves, but the currents can be
strong and the wind kicks up in the afternoons sometimes. None of us
in my family is an experienced kayaker; we are newbies who want to
learn more. We have borrowed and rented plastic boats in the past,
and we've all gotten by OK with them, except my littlest one, who has
struggled because, I believe, the boats have been too big and/or heavy
for her.

I have narrowed my choices to two alternative Pygmy kits: the Osprey
13 or the Arctic Tern 14. I was leaning towards the Osprey because it
is shorter (by about 12 inches) and lighter (by about 6 pounds). I
felt these were significant differences for such a small paddler.

However, I called Pygmy last week, and the gentleman with whom I spoke
steered me towards the Arctic Tern. He felt that it "handled" better
and would be much easier for my daughter to steer, etc. He felt that
this handling advantage more than compensated for the additional size
and weight.

I am now inclined to heed his advice, but I wonder if anyone can add
anything useful? If it matters: I have no boatbuilding experience but
lots of woodworking experience (furniture) and a decent shop with a
tablesaw, bandsaw etc (not that it looks like you need any of these
tools to build these kits).

Thank you all for any insights you can provide. I appreciate your
experience.

Brad

if its speed you're looking for pay attention to the amount of "wetted
surface" which is a measure of hull surface friction with the water. try
to keep it low. of two identical boats the lighter weight one will sit
higher in the water and have less wetted surface.

also pay attention to the shape of the hull. of any two boats with the
same wetted surface, a long narrow boat will be faster than a short fat boat.

faster boats, being narrower, are less stable. in small boats like kayaks
they need more paddler balance than slow boats. they gain stability once
they get going. a younger person should be better able to balance and
paddle a faster boat. younger persons are more flexible phsically and more
adaptable mentally.

its not easy to get the wetted surface measure for a mass market boat
for a specified load. not many people ask for the information. the
sales rep might have the numbers or be able to get them from the designer.
they should have been calculated by the designer.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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Doesn't suit everyone! Get her a dinghy with an outboard & let her be the
"escort" with the drink bottles, camera's etc etc.
BruceM


"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
if its speed you're looking for pay attention to the amount of "wetted
surface" which is a measure of hull surface friction with the water. try
to keep it low. of two identical boats the lighter weight one will sit
higher in the water and have less wetted surface.

also pay attention to the shape of the hull. of any two boats with the
same wetted surface, a long narrow boat will be faster than a short fat
boat.

faster boats, being narrower, are less stable. in small boats like kayaks
they need more paddler balance than slow boats. they gain stability once
they get going. a younger person should be better able to balance and
paddle a faster boat. younger persons are more flexible phsically and more
adaptable mentally.

its not easy to get the wetted surface measure for a mass market boat
for a specified load. not many people ask for the information. the
sales rep might have the numbers or be able to get them from the designer.
they should have been calculated by the designer.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

(brad) wrote in message

SNIP

However, I called Pygmy last week, and the gentleman with whom I spoke
steered me towards the Arctic Tern. He felt that it "handled" better
and would be much easier for my daughter to steer, etc. He felt that
this handling advantage more than compensated for the additional size
and weight.

I am now inclined to heed his advice, but I wonder if anyone can add
anything useful? If it matters: I have no boatbuilding experience but
lots of woodworking experience (furniture) and a decent shop with a
tablesaw, bandsaw etc (not that it looks like you need any of these
tools to build these kits).

As I was reading your post I was thinking that the longer kayak might
be better for the weight trade off, then I got to the last paragraph.
I agree with the guy at Pygmy (who knows much more about this than I),
go for the Tern if that is what he suggests. As far as building, with
your experience and a little patience, you should enjoy a smooth
build. I have just finished putting up the lines for my 9 yo, you
still have to stay somewhat long or they will have even more trouble
keeping up. And this is more important in the long run than the
occasional portage. If they can't keep up on the water, they will hate
the sport and portage will be the least of your problems.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


Thank you all for any insights you can provide. I appreciate your
experience.

Brad

Thank you all for your thoughts and help. Backyard Renegade, sounds
like you were inclined to agree with the advice I received from Pygmy
re the longer boat. I had thought that weight was the most important
issue and that the less, the better. However, I'm learning that it
isn't that simple, and that longer boats may be easier to paddle
despite weighing a couple more pounds. Portage is not really an issue
as this boat will be kept on the marshy grass behind my house and just
dragged a few feet into the water, so very little shlepping will be
involved.

I will probably order the Arctic Tern 14 from Pygmy. I'm really
excited about building my first boat. Once I have experience with the
kit, I'd like to order plans for a skiff and try to build one on my
own.

Thank you all very much for your help and your insights.

Brad


(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
(brad) wrote in message

SNIP

However, I called Pygmy last week, and the gentleman with whom I spoke
steered me towards the Arctic Tern. He felt that it "handled" better
and would be much easier for my daughter to steer, etc. He felt that
this handling advantage more than compensated for the additional size
and weight.

I am now inclined to heed his advice, but I wonder if anyone can add
anything useful? If it matters: I have no boatbuilding experience but
lots of woodworking experience (furniture) and a decent shop with a
tablesaw, bandsaw etc (not that it looks like you need any of these
tools to build these kits).

As I was reading your post I was thinking that the longer kayak might
be better for the weight trade off, then I got to the last paragraph.
I agree with the guy at Pygmy (who knows much more about this than I),
go for the Tern if that is what he suggests. As far as building, with
your experience and a little patience, you should enjoy a smooth
build. I have just finished putting up the lines for my 9 yo, you
still have to stay somewhat long or they will have even more trouble
keeping up. And this is more important in the long run than the
occasional portage. If they can't keep up on the water, they will hate
the sport and portage will be the least of your problems.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


Thank you all for any insights you can provide. I appreciate your
experience.

Brad

Did the representative explain to you why the 14ft handles better?

Seems to me that the boat length isn't as critical as the size/weight of her
paddle.

A foot or two of length shouldn't make all that much difference in my
opinion, but paddle materials, shape, and weight are important
considerations if your daughter is of slighter build. You also might
consider building her a kayak yourself from plywood.

"Chris" wrote in message om...
Did the representative explain to you why the 14ft handles better?

Seems to me that the boat length isn't as critical as the size/weight of her
paddle.

A foot or two of length shouldn't make all that much difference in my
opinion, but paddle materials, shape, and weight are important
considerations if your daughter is of slighter build. You also might
consider building her a kayak yourself from plywood.


He did mention why he thought the 14 handled better but I'm having
trouble recalling. I think he was implying that the Osprey 13 would
"slide" around more and be harder to turn. He also mentioned
something about one of them having more "rocker" (I think that was the
term he used), but I am not sure which one or even what it means
(something to do with the "upsweep" of the sides???).

As for paddles, I haven't heard/read much about them. Can any of you
give any suggestions for a good paddle type or material for a small
girl?

I would certainly consider building one myself from plywood as you
suggest. However, I just thought for my very first boat it might be
nice to just put a kit together to get experience with s & g
techniques. For the dinghy which I'm planning to build afterwards,
I'll definitely just go from plans. Also, although I've found plenty
of small flat bottom dinghy plans that look like real nice boats, I
haven't found any kayak plans that look nearly as nice as the pygmy or
clc kits. The kayak plans I've found all look "clunky" to me.

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 09:33:39 +0000, brad wrote:
SNIP

Thank you all for any insights you can provide. I appreciate your experience.

Brad

Just for fun (and learning about s&g) you might want to build Gavin Atkins'
"mouseboat". It's 8ft long, costs about $150 and a weekend or two to build, and
the plans are free! I built one for my Lady (who is not "petite") and we're both
amazed at how well the boat handles. Here are some pics:

http://www.user.dccnet.com/lsumpter/Lily/

You can get the plans at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mouseboats/

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

On 7 Jan 2004 19:53:56 -0800, (brad) wrote:

"Chris" wrote in message om...
Did the representative explain to you why the 14ft handles better?

Seems to me that the boat length isn't as critical as the size/weight of her
paddle.

A foot or two of length shouldn't make all that much difference in my
opinion, but paddle materials, shape, and weight are important
considerations if your daughter is of slighter build. You also might
consider building her a kayak yourself from plywood.


He did mention why he thought the 14 handled better but I'm having
trouble recalling. I think he was implying that the Osprey 13 would
"slide" around more and be harder to turn. He also mentioned
something about one of them having more "rocker" (I think that was the
term he used), but I am not sure which one or even what it means
(something to do with the "upsweep" of the sides???).

rocker is the amount of curve from end to end. A boat with lots of
rocker is easy to turn but will not track as well as a boat with less
rocker. More rocker is probably going to cause the boat to be slower
as well.