Guys (and girls),

Do a search for aircraft laminating or structures, see how many are built
using polyester...and NOT crappy addon bits like fairings/wheels covers.

Normal poly can NOT be vacuumed due to residual styrene.

Poly is brilliant stuff, don't get me wrong. How many boats sail around the
world every year built from cheap poly and chopped mat? (A lot!) but for
better bond strength, and stronger laminates, epoxy is simply better. Epoxy
makes a better mold for hulls also due its' vastly lower SHRINKAGE rate.

I have heard little argument about vinylesters though. This stuff is very
good. Bonds like epoxy, laminates like epoxy, VACUUMS like epoxy (in the
right form). Quite a few aircraft flyng now using VE.

No resin system is difficult to measure or use, what is it with drops and
cups and that ****? Read a book on ratios...poly being 100:1(weight/volume)
resin catalyst (or whatever) 100 grams = 1ml of hardener...how bloody hard
is that? Go to a chemist (drug store) and buy small and medium syringes,
and/or eye droppers. MEASURE the catalyst for the correct ratio after you
WEIGH the resin and you should never have any problems.

Research what you need, research how you use your chosen material, research
the methodology...don't ever guess. Use the experience, education and
knowledge of the resin supplier. Why the hell would they say...mix ### ratio
of resin to hardener in such and such a temperature and humidity and not
really MEAN IT!

If you build a boat/plane/car/spaceship whatever and don't read the
instructions, and the structure ****s itself, you have nobody to blame other
than yourself. Just don't involve others in your foolishness, like needing
to be rescued, or generally needing your hand held because you know better
than people with doctorates in chemistry.

Enjoy

Rod.

"rude" wrote in message ...
Guys (and girls),

Do a search for aircraft laminating or structures, see how many are built
using polyester...and NOT crappy addon bits like fairings/wheels covers.

Normal poly can NOT be vacuumed due to residual styrene.

Poly is brilliant stuff, don't get me wrong. How many boats sail around the
world every year built from cheap poly and chopped mat? (A lot!) but for
better bond strength, and stronger laminates, epoxy is simply better. Epoxy
makes a better mold for hulls also due its' vastly lower SHRINKAGE rate.

I have heard little argument about vinylesters though. This stuff is very
good. Bonds like epoxy, laminates like epoxy, VACUUMS like epoxy (in the
right form). Quite a few aircraft flyng now using VE.

No resin system is difficult to measure or use, what is it with drops and
cups and that ****? Read a book on ratios...poly being 100:1(weight/volume)
resin catalyst (or whatever) 100 grams = 1ml of hardener...how bloody hard
is that? Go to a chemist (drug store) and buy small and medium syringes,
and/or eye droppers. MEASURE the catalyst for the correct ratio after you
WEIGH the resin and you should never have any problems.

Research what you need, research how you use your chosen material, research
the methodology...don't ever guess. Use the experience, education and
knowledge of the resin supplier. Why the hell would they say...mix ### ratio
of resin to hardener in such and such a temperature and humidity and not
really MEAN IT!

If you build a boat/plane/car/spaceship whatever and don't read the
instructions, and the structure ****s itself, you have nobody to blame other
than yourself. Just don't involve others in your foolishness, like needing
to be rescued, or generally needing your hand held because you know better
than people with doctorates in chemistry.

I have been through all that and have decided that I don't want to buy
syringes, I don't want to buy a scale or graduated cups, I don't want
to have to dispose of all the cups and mixing items and clean them all
up, have to measure temperature and humidity every time I want to mix
a couple of ounces of resin, I don't want to measure all that, mix my
product and have the clouds come over and change everything, I don't
want to go out and get a f***** doctorate in chemistry, I don't want
to be some pseudo-intellectual pompous ass, I just to build a few
smallboats!
And no matter what you say, anyone who is working in constantly
changing conditions that can not be controlled, has no sane reason to
go through the problems that arise using poly in those conditions
especially if they are not experienced with the stuff. All I said was
epoxy is easier for a beginner, get it?


Enjoy

Enjoy my ass, this was an attack, say what you mean, this is an
important subject.

Rod.

I would like to note that although I don't talk about it much as "The
Backyard Renegade", IDesigns LLC (me and my partner) is a USCG
registered boat manufacturer who abides by all of the rules and
regulations as set fourth by the USCG
"Safety Standards For Backyard Boat Builders - COMDTPUB P16761.3B".
I have built and sold over 50 boats in the recent past and have never
had a problem with any of them, and I resent the insinuation as to
this or that I would "need to be rescued" regardless of what this
clown would suggest...
Scott Ingersoll IDesigns LLC dba SmallBoats.com
Essex CT

The reply was to the group, any thought that it was an attack on you
personally, or to your business was not intended. The clown suggestion is
closer to the truth than you would realise...:-)

I have also done some work on this and that...my work flies in Australian
skies, floats on rivers and oceans, drives around tracks at 100+ mph. I have
an interest in things made from this type of material, and building things
thats all.

I get a bit P***ed off at people trying to get around what they need to do
and making lots of excuses to not do things properly. I do not mean you
personally BY renegade, I have never met you, nor you me, how could I make
such an assumption? I just mean as a general statement, and from my industry
experience generally people will try and get around things (the public).

All I was saying was:

Chose a material, read the instructions, follow the instructions.

If you don't like the material, or the instructions, or can't measure
things, don't use it.

Enjoy.

Rod. (duly dubbed "the Clown" by Backyard Renegade)

"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"rude" wrote in message
...
Guys (and girls),

Do a search for aircraft laminating or structures, see how many are
built
using polyester...and NOT crappy addon bits like fairings/wheels covers.

Normal poly can NOT be vacuumed due to residual styrene.

Poly is brilliant stuff, don't get me wrong. How many boats sail around
the
world every year built from cheap poly and chopped mat? (A lot!) but for
better bond strength, and stronger laminates, epoxy is simply better.
Epoxy
makes a better mold for hulls also due its' vastly lower SHRINKAGE rate.

I have heard little argument about vinylesters though. This stuff is
very
good. Bonds like epoxy, laminates like epoxy, VACUUMS like epoxy (in the
right form). Quite a few aircraft flyng now using VE.

No resin system is difficult to measure or use, what is it with drops
and
cups and that ****? Read a book on ratios...poly being
100:1(weight/volume)
resin catalyst (or whatever) 100 grams = 1ml of hardener...how bloody
hard
is that? Go to a chemist (drug store) and buy small and medium syringes,
and/or eye droppers. MEASURE the catalyst for the correct ratio after
you
WEIGH the resin and you should never have any problems.

Research what you need, research how you use your chosen material,
research
the methodology...don't ever guess. Use the experience, education and
knowledge of the resin supplier. Why the hell would they say...mix ###
ratio
of resin to hardener in such and such a temperature and humidity and not
really MEAN IT!

If you build a boat/plane/car/spaceship whatever and don't read the
instructions, and the structure ****s itself, you have nobody to blame
other
than yourself. Just don't involve others in your foolishness, like
needing
to be rescued, or generally needing your hand held because you know
better
than people with doctorates in chemistry.

I have been through all that and have decided that I don't want to buy
syringes, I don't want to buy a scale or graduated cups, I don't want
to have to dispose of all the cups and mixing items and clean them all
up, have to measure temperature and humidity every time I want to mix
a couple of ounces of resin, I don't want to measure all that, mix my
product and have the clouds come over and change everything, I don't
want to go out and get a f***** doctorate in chemistry, I don't want
to be some pseudo-intellectual pompous ass, I just to build a few
smallboats!
And no matter what you say, anyone who is working in constantly
changing conditions that can not be controlled, has no sane reason to
go through the problems that arise using poly in those conditions
especially if they are not experienced with the stuff. All I said was
epoxy is easier for a beginner, get it?


Enjoy

Enjoy my ass, this was an attack, say what you mean, this is an
important subject.

Rod.

I would like to note that although I don't talk about it much as "The
Backyard Renegade", IDesigns LLC (me and my partner) is a USCG
registered boat manufacturer who abides by all of the rules and
regulations as set fourth by the USCG
"Safety Standards For Backyard Boat Builders - COMDTPUB P16761.3B".
I have built and sold over 50 boats in the recent past and have never
had a problem with any of them, and I resent the insinuation as to
this or that I would "need to be rescued" regardless of what this
clown would suggest...
Scott Ingersoll IDesigns LLC dba SmallBoats.com
Essex CT

"rude" wrote in message ...
The reply was to the group, any thought that it was an attack on you
personally, or to your business was not intended. The clown suggestion is
closer to the truth than you would realise...:-)

I have also done some work on this and that...my work flies in Australian
skies, floats on rivers and oceans, drives around tracks at 100+ mph. I have
an interest in things made from this type of material, and building things
thats all.

I get a bit P***ed off at people trying to get around what they need to do
and making lots of excuses to not do things properly.

It was quite obvious you were p***ed off, that may be why you
misunderstood my, and several other posts. And doing what I do
properly is exactly why I use Epoxy instead of Polyester. If I have a
need for laminating resin, I may use polyester, but in my case I need
an adhesive, so I use epoxy... Cause I do want to do things properly,
no excuses here.

I do not mean you
personally BY renegade, I have never met you, nor you me, how could I make
such an assumption? I just mean as a general statement, and from my industry
experience generally people will try and get around things (the public).

All I was saying was:

Chose a material, read the instructions, follow the instructions.

Yup, that's what I do.


If you don't like the material, or the instructions, or can't measure
things, don't use it.

None of these apply here. If you somehow got that impression then you
have completely missed my point. As someone who spends a considerable
amount of time working with first time builders of stitch and tape
boats, I will continue to reccomend Epoxy in most cases. When I have a
project that calls for polyester, I will use it too. later...
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


Enjoy.

Rod. (duly dubbed "the Clown" by Backyard Renegade)

Sorry about the clown comment, gotta leave this thread now... Scotty

Epoxy gets hot, then the boat melts
Big discussion on woodenboat forum about this.

The epoxy I have used (Devcon) will not deform until 200 f, in fact if you
try melting with a heat gun, it will crumble not melt. Do other epoxies
really melt/liquify???

How about DOW D.E.R. 331 resin and deformation temperature?




"rude" wrote in message
...
Guys (and girls),

Do a search for aircraft laminating or structures, see how many are built
using polyester...and NOT crappy addon bits like fairings/wheels covers.

Normal poly can NOT be vacuumed due to residual styrene.

Poly is brilliant stuff, don't get me wrong. How many boats sail around
the
world every year built from cheap poly and chopped mat? (A lot!) but for
better bond strength, and stronger laminates, epoxy is simply better.
Epoxy
makes a better mold for hulls also due its' vastly lower SHRINKAGE rate.

I have heard little argument about vinylesters though. This stuff is very
good. Bonds like epoxy, laminates like epoxy, VACUUMS like epoxy (in the
right form). Quite a few aircraft flyng now using VE.

No resin system is difficult to measure or use, what is it with drops and
cups and that ****? Read a book on ratios...poly being
100:1(weight/volume)
resin catalyst (or whatever) 100 grams = 1ml of hardener...how bloody hard
is that? Go to a chemist (drug store) and buy small and medium syringes,
and/or eye droppers. MEASURE the catalyst for the correct ratio after you
WEIGH the resin and you should never have any problems.

Research what you need, research how you use your chosen material,
research
the methodology...don't ever guess. Use the experience, education and
knowledge of the resin supplier. Why the hell would they say...mix ###
ratio
of resin to hardener in such and such a temperature and humidity and not
really MEAN IT!

If you build a boat/plane/car/spaceship whatever and don't read the
instructions, and the structure ****s itself, you have nobody to blame
other
than yourself. Just don't involve others in your foolishness, like needing
to be rescued, or generally needing your hand held because you know better
than people with doctorates in chemistry.

Enjoy

Rod.

"Scott Downey" wrote in message ...
Epoxy gets hot, then the boat melts
Big discussion on woodenboat forum about this.


Sooooo, with all this discussion has anyone come up with a credible
instance where a properly designed and built boat has indeed come
apart or are we indulging the anti Epoxy crew as they throw hand
grenades?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com (who uses many different adhesives and
laminating resins, each when called for...)