Steam bending reducing rot
 

It would be a by-product of steam bending but not generally usefull as
only some of the wood on a boat is steam bent. Unfortunately bacteria
spores are pretty heat resistent. For example, cooking your food kills
bacteria but only puts the spores into a dormant state for about 24 hours
which is long enough for you to digest and expell them (about 10 hours)
before they wake up and mulitply inside you and make you sick. Its the
same when boiling drinking water or treating it with chlorine. After you
put wood on a boat its still suceptable to airborne rot spores. The darned
things are everywhere.

--
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how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Gregg Germain wrote in message ...
William R. Watt wrote:
: Brian Nystrom ) writes:

: When I've soaked wood, all it did was make is swell so it no longer fit
: where it was supposed to, such as in a mortise. Either that, or if it
: was trimmed to fit after steaming, it shrank as it dried and became
: loose. Soaking didn't seem to make any difference in the bend-ability of
: the wood.

: softwoods would have more of a tendancy to swell. TF Jones writes that a
: nice piece of 15-20 year old oak needs soaking before steam bending.

Well you usually would prefer to steambend oak that was freshly cut
down int eh forest because it's moisture content is high. The Vikings
(and others) used to take freshly riven oak stock and submerge them
in a bog to keep them wet until they were used. But there, they were
trying to retain moisture - not add it in.

I dont' see where soaking 20 year old oak is going to make much
difference.


: A 1"x1" piece of clear oak properly steamed can be tied in a knot. Not
: something I've ever tried.

Hav eyou ever SEEN this done? With what length of wood? How tight a
knot?

I bend white oak for boat ribs all the time and they never get that
flexible.



--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:


Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm



"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

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I think some of the folks here are forgetting that it is the heat, not
the moisture that allows the cell walls to get soft. See Greg, I have
read your pages ;) Anyway, I think the steam helps in delivering that
heat in a even, manageable fashion. I have heard of folks bending
without steam, just heat but I have not tried..
Scotty... still with tail between legs...

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Stephen Baker wrote:

Brian N says:


It strikes me as one
of those things that seems intuitively correct, but really doesn't help.



I dunno. Dad had (at the tme I last saw him soaking oak) bee nbuilding,
designing and restoring boats for some 30-odd years. I know he wasn't a type
"A" personality, so can't imagine him wasting time or effort on something that
wasn't necessary to produce the perfect product.
Sadly, he died in '83, so I can't ask him to find out. I'll see if I can track
down his last apprentice and see what she has to say.

I'd be curious to know if he ever did a comparison between soaking and
not. I haven't seen any definitive tests and am just working off my own
experience and that of others I know who've tried it both ways.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Backyard Renegade wrote:

I think some of the folks here are forgetting that it is the heat, not
the moisture that allows the cell walls to get soft. See Greg, I have
read your pages ;) Anyway, I think the steam helps in delivering that
heat in a even, manageable fashion.

You're absolutely correct on both counts.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

William R. Watt wrote:

I'm sure
if wood only needed to be heated to bend then for centuries boatbuilders
would have been using dry ovens instead of more complicated steam boxes
for bending.

The advantage of steam is that it produces the proper degree of heat
repeatedly and reliably. It's by far the simplest way to do so, since no
thermostats or circulation fans are required. The heat retention of the
water vapor helps assure that the heat is evenly distributed in the box
and it transfers heat 25x faster to the wood than air does. You
certainly could use dry ovens, but on thick stock, you'd end up with a
very dry outside layer by the time the inside heated up enough to bend.

And natives would have left wood in the sun to warm up prior
to bending rather than soaking canoe ribs and planks without heat to make
them easier to bend.

No, because sunlight wouldn't produce nearly enough heat. You're making
some pretty illogical assumptions here.

Anybody who wants to try a comparsion can heat wood
in an oven or microwave dry or wet and test the difference. What we don't
have in this, and many discussions, is any experimental data. :(

Agreed. The closest I've come is to take pieces from the same plank,
soak some and not others, then bend them. I found no difference in
bending ability, but the tests were hardly scientific.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

steveJ wrote:

Well Nick, I must admit that where I saw this was not on a boat.
Musical instrument makers have been doing this for centuries to bend the
sides of guitars and such. Though the wood was thin, I've seen a guitar
maker bend honduran mahogany using a two inch iron pipe that was set up
on a stand with a propane torch burning in the middle of the pipe.
water was sprayed on the surface of the wood to prevent burning. Worked
very well. I wonder if this concept/tool cold be used for larger pieces
for bending ribs on small boats. I see no reason why it wouldn't work
when making small ribs like for a kayak or something.

I suspect that it would be difficult to get even heating of a 1/4" thick
kayak rib, but it might be worth a try. However, steam bending is so
easy that I'm not sure if the experiment would be worth the effort.

Steam bending reducing rot
 

Gregg Germain wrote:

I've never heard of that directly. But there's this:

Using green wood is usually a bad idea in boatbuilding as it promotes
rot. Yet you prefer green wood when steambending.
But the steaming eliminated the tendency for the wood to rot due to
it's "greeness".

So in that sense, steaming helps to prevent rot.

What people forget is that the heat of steaming actually drives moisture
OUT of green wood. Perhaps that's part of the reason for increased rot
resistance?

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Old Nick wrote:

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:53:54 GMT, Brian Whatcott
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

I picked up on this note. The tone was ugly. So I looked back on the
thread to see how Marcel had transgressed.
I didn't see it. So it looks kinda irrational.
Can someone explain please?

Easy. I get sick of people who come here and ask questions (and the
question was minimally asked) and then can't be bothered to show an
interest in the efrfort people put into replying.

That in no way justifies making unfounded assumptions and posting such
as ****y reply. How can you possibly know his intentions or actions? You
can't, but you spouted off anyway. That's a great way to make people
feel welcome, isn't it? It's not like you've been a big contributor to
this discussion, either.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

"Marcel" wrote in message ...
The problem is how do you bend wood on a yet to built boat.
I am using wood 7mm thick and 50mm wide.

Hot steamy towels and a little patience...

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
Backyard Renegade wrote:

I think some of the folks here are forgetting that it is the heat, not
the moisture that allows the cell walls to get soft. See Greg, I have
read your pages ;) Anyway, I think the steam helps in delivering that
heat in a even, manageable fashion.

You're absolutely correct on both counts.

Well of course I am, I'm actually pretty good when I keep on the
meds... kidding guys...

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:43:25 GMT, Brian Nystrom
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

What unfounded assumptions? What does it natter what their intentions
were? There _actions_ were that they asked for information, have had a
lot of effort to supply it, and have not bothered to come back.

I am not sure I _want_ to make people like that welcome. If they can't
be bothered to come back to their own posts then good riddance. I
admit my post was ****y. That is all I will admit. I have posted
messages with similar intent buy softer content in the past.

I have not contributed much to this thread, I agree. I am no "expert"
on the subject. I did comment on what I did know. I have contributed
quite a bit in the past, whether it was "welcome" or not. What I have
had to say is as good as a lot of what I read here. Read that how you
like.

That in no way justifies making unfounded assumptions and posting such
as ****y reply. How can you possibly know his intentions or actions? You
can't, but you spouted off anyway. That's a great way to make people
feel welcome, isn't it? It's not like you've been a big contributor to
this discussion, either.

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:34:31 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

steveJ wrote:

Well Nick, I must admit that where I saw this was not on a boat.
Musical instrument makers have been doing this for centuries to bend the
sides of guitars and such. Though the wood was thin, I've seen a guitar
maker bend honduran mahogany using a two inch iron pipe that was set up
on a stand with a propane torch burning in the middle of the pipe.
water was sprayed on the surface of the wood to prevent burning. Worked
very well. I wonder if this concept/tool cold be used for larger pieces
for bending ribs on small boats. I see no reason why it wouldn't work
when making small ribs like for a kayak or something.

I suspect that it would be difficult to get even heating of a 1/4" thick
kayak rib, but it might be worth a try. However, steam bending is so
easy that I'm not sure if the experiment would be worth the effort.

How even does it have to be? As I posted earlier, the curved sides of
Flemish harpsichords were bent over a hot iron, probably the top of
the shop stove, for about 2 centuries. The bent side started over 1/2
in thick. It is a little thinner at the area of greatest curvature
because they had to scrape the charcoal off before they could paint
it.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Smoking in a bar is like peeing in a punchbowl.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

I suspect that it would be difficult to get even heating of a 1/4" thick
kayak rib, but it might be worth a try. However, steam bending is so
easy that I'm not sure if the experiment would be worth the effort.


How even does it have to be? As I posted earlier, the curved sides of
Flemish harpsichords were bent over a hot iron, probably the top of
the shop stove, for about 2 centuries. The bent side started over 1/2
in thick. It is a little thinner at the area of greatest curvature
because they had to scrape the charcoal off before they could paint
it.

Well, I wouldn't want to be scraping any charocal off a rib that's only
1/4" thick to start with. Burning the outside in order to get the inside
hot enough to bend seems pretty ridiculous when you can steam the part
and have it bend with no damage. Perhaps the harpsicord makers couldn't
do this for some reason or perhaps there is something about the wood
they used that precluded it?

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Old Nick wrote:

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:43:25 GMT, Brian Nystrom
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

What unfounded assumptions? What does it natter what their intentions
were? There _actions_ were that they asked for information, have had a
lot of effort to supply it, and have not bothered to come back.

I am not sure I _want_ to make people like that welcome. If they can't
be bothered to come back to their own posts then good riddance. I
admit my post was ****y. That is all I will admit. I have posted
messages with similar intent buy softer content in the past.

You're assuming that he hasn't been back to check the thread. You're
assuming that it's intentional on his part. You're assuming that he's
not grateful for the suggestions.

Perhaps the guy's been away for a few days and unable to check the
newsgroup? Would you still feel justified in bitching at him for being
ungrateful?

You haven't been supplying any information, so why do you even care? You
got your panties all in a wad over nothing and decided to insult the guy
without cause. What's really eating you? I doubt that it's anything to
do with this thread.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:49:00 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

I suspect that it would be difficult to get even heating of a 1/4" thick
kayak rib, but it might be worth a try. However, steam bending is so
easy that I'm not sure if the experiment would be worth the effort.


How even does it have to be? As I posted earlier, the curved sides of
Flemish harpsichords were bent over a hot iron, probably the top of
the shop stove, for about 2 centuries. The bent side started over 1/2
in thick. It is a little thinner at the area of greatest curvature
because they had to scrape the charcoal off before they could paint
it.

Well, I wouldn't want to be scraping any charocal off a rib that's only
1/4" thick to start with. Burning the outside in order to get the inside
hot enough to bend seems pretty ridiculous when you can steam the part
and have it bend with no damage. Perhaps the harpsicord makers couldn't
do this for some reason or perhaps there is something about the wood
they used that precluded it?

First, they started with it thick enough to end up as desired. Second,
the iron was on the inside of the curve (which is the outside of the
harpsichord. Third, what they did was probably the fastest way to do
it. They were not into spending a lot of time savoring the process.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Smoking in a bar is like peeing in a punchbowl.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

I'm not a boat builder but I am an accomplished woodworker. I've used an old
microwave oven to heat small pieces to bend. I've also seen a homemade
contraption built by a woodowrker that uses a piece of pipe placed through the
center of an old 250 gal propane tank. It looks like an oversize B-B-Que pit.
He lights a fire in the tank, slids his wood through the pipe and heats it. It
seems to work very effectively for the bent wood rocking chairs he
manufacturers. Just a thought!

I think some of the folks here are forgetting that it is the heat, not
the moisture that allows the cell walls to get soft. See Greg, I have
read your pages ;) Anyway, I think the steam helps in delivering that
heat in a even, manageable fashion. I have heard of folks bending
without steam, just heat but I have not tried..
Scotty... still with tail between legs...

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Ive done it using 2" copper pipe heated on a gas stove
"Max Camirand" wrote in message
...
On 7 Mar 2004 00:01:32 GMT, (William R.
Watt) wrote:


A 1"x1" piece of clear oak properly steamed can be tied in a knot. Not
something I've ever tried.

I'll try it sometime, and post pictures :-)

-m

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

I recall seeing plans for a steamer that was basically a long piece of
copper pipe connected to a tea kettle. It was probably in a strip canoe
book. I'll look around and see if I can find it again.

still get sick of how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:56:40 GMT, Brian Nystrom
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You're assuming that he hasn't been back to check the thread. You're
assuming that it's intentional on his part. You're assuming that he's
not grateful for the suggestions.

OK. I waited. I waited because you were so damned determined to judge
my appraisal of the OP's motoves.......and I reckon by now I am right.
The guy is a wasterel.

So how long do you want to give the little %$#* Eh!

I am still sick of prats who cannot be bothered to follow up their own
posts. TROLL rings a bell. LAZY comes next.

I am NOT assuming that "he" is not grateful. I reckon that if "he" is,
then we should all hear about it. A lot of effort has been put into
replying. A simple "thank you" is the least.....

OK?
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:30:09 +0100, "Marcel"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

The problem is how do you bend wood on a yet to built boat.
I am using wood 7mm thick and 50mm wide.

Marcel Marceau? No speak?
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Oddly enough,a guy named Marcel started working with us about the time
this thread started and if it's the same guy, he's not worth getting
too excited about.I'll whack him with a 2x4 tomorrow just in case he
is the same person.
I've bent up to 1/4" thick pieces of wood with just heat only
useing water to keep it from scorching.With a piece of pipe in a vise
and a torch to heat it up,then rocking or sliding the wood back and
forth under as much pressure as feels like just short of breaking,a
point is reach where the wood becomes elastic and will bend very
easily.
What I wanted to post though about bending wood was an article I
remember seeing in Fine Woodworking a loooong time ago(+ or - a
decade) about useing anhydrous ammonia to bend wood and they had a
picture of something like a 2x2 oak stick tied in an amazingly tight
knot.I'm sure it would have an application for wooden boat building (I
like fiberglass) especially where bigger chunks of wood are used.As
far as the ammonia goes,it's the kind farmers use to fertilize their
fields by injecting it as a liquid.If you happen to inhale it you
immediately wonder who took your lungs and when are they going to
bring them back as you need them RIGHT NOW! A respirater with the
correct cartridges is handy to have.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

I've seen some similarly amazing examples of ammonia bending, too. But
as you say, it's hazardous to work with. In a commercial operation, I
imagine there would be all kinds of OSHA and EPA regs to deal with if
you were going to use ammonia. One major advantage of steam is that it
only requires heat and water and produces no pollutants...though some
woods really reek when steamed.

how do you bend wood into the boat shape?
 

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
I've seen some similarly amazing examples of ammonia bending, too. But
as you say, it's hazardous to work with. In a commercial operation, I
imagine there would be all kinds of OSHA and EPA regs to deal with if
you were going to use ammonia. One major advantage of steam is that it
only requires heat and water and produces no pollutants...though some
woods really reek when steamed.

Sawing red oak I've often checked my pants to try and find where
the stench is coming from.I suppose in a commercial(huge) operation
the Federalis would have to be involved but I don't think too much
even then, as any farmer can get ahold of a 2000 gallon tank of the
stuff just by paying cash,and for the most part, if you don't tell
them, how are they going to know? I think it worked different from
steam and heat, in that it chemically plastisized the wood
way past the steam bending phase and placed it in the 'circus freak'
realm of possibilities.