Well I have an 8 horse Rude, 1988, pull start, great condition, maybe
75 hours on it. Had a problem today, had to keep squeezing the ball
until it leaked to keep it running, but it really did not work. As
soon as I try to idle or now push the choke full off, it seems to run
out of fuel. I cleaned the carb, from outside, and put in new plugs,
made adjustments, still the same. I have to pull the choke a little to
start it, then is searches for idle,levels off, then eventually
sputters to a stop. Good compression, good spark, timing sounds on,
etc... Just runs out or fuel I think, or the float is stuck, down? I
choke it, pump the ball, and she will run at partial choke and high
idle setting, but as soon as you push the choke in that last 1/8 inch,
or put it to idle, it slows to a stop, wants to stay running, just
won't.
So here is my quesion. Can someone tell me how the fuel delivery
system works with this external tank and hand pump ball to squeeze. Is
there a fuel pump on the engine, how does it work, diaphram,
venturi??? Anyway, the choke lever goes into a fixture with a couple
of lines to the carb, and a electrical lead, could this unit just be
clogged, is it a usual task to clean it? I have cleaned the valve on
the side of the engine that seems to direct the fuel from the tank.
Anyway, long day, hope this makes sence, where would you start, and of
course if you are on the CT shoreline and want to come by I'll take
you fishin' when we get it runnin', Scotty from SmallBoats.com

I had this problem and it was the fuel pump, a very easy repair. I also
replaced the spark plug wires at the same time and all was well.

And maybe the ball at the tank - engine line, had that happen with the same
symptoms too....................

I suggest the fault is the tank, not the motor. The tank is leaking air. The
squeeze ball charges the tank. The overpressure tank then feeds fuel to the
carb. Check your seals, gaskets, hose and hose fittings.
Steve
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Well I have an 8 horse Rude, 1988, pull start, great condition, maybe
75 hours on it. Had a problem today, had to keep squeezing the ball
until it leaked to keep it running, but it really did not work. As
soon as I try to idle or now push the choke full off, it seems to run
out of fuel. I cleaned the carb, from outside, and put in new plugs,
made adjustments, still the same. I have to pull the choke a little to
start it, then is searches for idle,levels off, then eventually
sputters to a stop. Good compression, good spark, timing sounds on,
etc... Just runs out or fuel I think, or the float is stuck, down? I
choke it, pump the ball, and she will run at partial choke and high
idle setting, but as soon as you push the choke in that last 1/8 inch,
or put it to idle, it slows to a stop, wants to stay running, just
won't.
So here is my quesion. Can someone tell me how the fuel delivery
system works with this external tank and hand pump ball to squeeze. Is
there a fuel pump on the engine, how does it work, diaphram,
venturi??? Anyway, the choke lever goes into a fixture with a couple
of lines to the carb, and a electrical lead, could this unit just be
clogged, is it a usual task to clean it? I have cleaned the valve on
the side of the engine that seems to direct the fuel from the tank.
Anyway, long day, hope this makes sence, where would you start, and of
course if you are on the CT shoreline and want to come by I'll take
you fishin' when we get it runnin', Scotty from SmallBoats.com

Scotty,
I think the problem is the *OPPOSITE* of the one suggested by Steve.

Unless there is something special about this motor, that makes it operate
entirely different from the typical, the 'Priming Bulb' *does NOT*
pressurize the tank.

The system works on a gravity/siphon principle. Once the engine is running,
the only 'vacuum' created is in the carburetor 'bowl'. On the CAP of the
remote fuel tank, there maybe a small knurled knob. You have to turn it to
open a very small hole to allow EQUALIZING air to enter as the fuel is drawn
out. {On some tanks the cap comes to a 'wedge' shape . . . there is a tiny
hole, for a one-way internal valve}. You may already know about this knob,
but the valve may have become clogged, or stuck.

That is the SIMPLEST problem & solution. There may be a small leak in the
line or bulb {you mentioned that . . .}. It may be so small it only leaks
under pressure - internal or *external*. Anything in that part of the
'delivery system' that 'breaks the vacuum' BEFORE the fuel gets to the
carburetor, won't allow the 'siphon' to work. What the engine has to run on,
is only the fuel in the 'bowl'. {I run my small 6hp Evinrude {1992}'dry' at
the end of the day by disconnecting the fuel line . . . it is very
surprising how lone it runs on that small amount of gas}

While you are at it, I would change the fuel filter.

Any more questions, just give me a shout . . . I know we've talked before.
If I was closer, I would come over and help you, myself.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Well I have an 8 horse Rude, 1988, pull start, great condition, maybe
75 hours on it. Had a problem today, had to keep squeezing the ball
until it leaked to keep it running, but it really did not work. As
soon as I try to idle or now push the choke full off, it seems to run
out of fuel. I cleaned the carb, from outside, and put in new plugs,
made adjustments, still the same. I have to pull the choke a little to
start it, then is searches for idle,levels off, then eventually
sputters to a stop. Good compression, good spark, timing sounds on,
etc... Just runs out or fuel I think, or the float is stuck, down? I
choke it, pump the ball, and she will run at partial choke and high
idle setting, but as soon as you push the choke in that last 1/8 inch,
or put it to idle, it slows to a stop, wants to stay running, just
won't.
So here is my quesion. Can someone tell me how the fuel delivery
system works with this external tank and hand pump ball to squeeze. Is
there a fuel pump on the engine, how does it work, diaphram,
venturi??? Anyway, the choke lever goes into a fixture with a couple
of lines to the carb, and a electrical lead, could this unit just be
clogged, is it a usual task to clean it? I have cleaned the valve on
the side of the engine that seems to direct the fuel from the tank.
Anyway, long day, hope this makes sence, where would you start, and of
course if you are on the CT shoreline and want to come by I'll take
you fishin' when we get it runnin', Scotty from SmallBoats.com

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ...
I suggest the fault is the tank, not the motor. The tank is leaking air. The
squeeze ball charges the tank. The overpressure tank then feeds fuel to the
carb. Check your seals, gaskets, hose and hose fittings.
Steve

This confuses me. I have always kept the air valve open on top of the
fill cap for the tank, the pressure is equal to that outside the tank.
The ball has checks in which allow me to build up some kind of
pressure in the engine, I have always assumed that once the engine
starts, it somehow draws fuel from the tank, in line with the check
valves. This could only happen if the engine were somehow sucking fuel
from the tank. In fact when I leave the fill cap vent closed, it sucks
the tank down (red plastic portable tank).

Anyway, I have had a better look this morning and I see that the valve
I refered to below does not have an electrical lead, it is more likely
a vacume lead, maybe some kind of vacume actuated idle control (idle
air bypass)? The choke knob feed directly into this unit which also
has two fuel lines running to the carb, one low, one high, could this
also control idle fuel?

Anyway, to the fuel pump, can someone explain how it works on this
engine, that will help me to find it! Is it vacume, or mechanical, in
the meantime I will be looking today in better light, thanks again,
Scotty, Keep em' coming...

"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Well I have an 8 horse Rude, 1988, pull start, great condition, maybe
75 hours on it. Had a problem today, had to keep squeezing the ball
until it leaked to keep it running, but it really did not work. As
soon as I try to idle or now push the choke full off, it seems to run
out of fuel. I cleaned the carb, from outside, and put in new plugs,
made adjustments, still the same. I have to pull the choke a little to
start it, then is searches for idle,levels off, then eventually
sputters to a stop. Good compression, good spark, timing sounds on,
etc... Just runs out or fuel I think, or the float is stuck, down? I
choke it, pump the ball, and she will run at partial choke and high
idle setting, but as soon as you push the choke in that last 1/8 inch,
or put it to idle, it slows to a stop, wants to stay running, just
won't.
So here is my quesion. Can someone tell me how the fuel delivery
system works with this external tank and hand pump ball to squeeze. Is
there a fuel pump on the engine, how does it work, diaphram,
venturi??? Anyway, the choke lever goes into a fixture with a couple
of lines to the carb, and a electrical lead, could this unit just be
clogged, is it a usual task to clean it? I have cleaned the valve on
the side of the engine that seems to direct the fuel from the tank.
Anyway, long day, hope this makes sence, where would you start, and of
course if you are on the CT shoreline and want to come by I'll take
you fishin' when we get it runnin', Scotty from SmallBoats.com

(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
Well I have an 8 horse Rude, 1988, pull start, great condition, maybe
75 hours on it. Had a problem today, had to keep squeezing the ball
until it leaked to keep it running, but it really did not work. As
soon as I try to idle or now push the choke full off,
snip
Scotty from SmallBoats.com

Hi Scotty,

If there is a little bleed screw on the tank (normally on the filler
cap), it means you probably run an unpressurised system.

With this system, there is no fuel pump. Suction from the running
engine pulls fuel from the carb. Suction from the carb pulls more fuel
from the tank, through the check valves and bulb and into the carb.

The bleed screw on the tank allows air to be drawn into the tank to
replace the petrol drawn out - so if it becomes clogged or is not
open, the tank may be sucked in.

Punmping the bulb primes the system - it draws up fuel from the tank
to fill the hose from the tank to the bulb, the bulb itself, the hose
from the bulb to the carb, and the carb itself. Fuel now doesn't have
to be sucked all the way from the tank before the engine will start,
it's already in the carb bowl.

The check valves make the bulb work
- when the bulb is pressed, the valve below the bulb (nearest the
tank) prevents the fuel from passing back into the tank, so the fuel
is forced instead towards the ob.
- when the bulb is released, the valve above the bulb (nearest the
ob) prevents the fuel being sucked back into the bulb from the ob -
instead more fuel is drawn up from the tank.

If you have, or have access to, another ob that uses the same fuel
connector and tank, try to cut the problem in half.
Run your ob off the known good tank/bulb/hose/check valves - if it
works, problem is in your fuel system.
Test the other combination also.

However, from your description, this sounds like a problem I
experienced last year on our Evninrude 8hp (similar vintage).
Bulb goes hard, engine starts easily enough on choke, run OK on any
choke, dies slowly after choke is cut.
Couldn't fix it ourselves - dealer took apart carb and fixed.
There are apparently two relevant passages for fuel through the carb.
The low speed one had clogged.
With even a little choke, enough fuel got through that way to sustain
the engine. As soon as choke was fully closed, engine died.
There is also a high speed passage, so the engine might run under
higher throttle, if you can get it there.
He found a blockage in the load speed passage - when cleared, problem
solved.

This explanation is based on my understanding of what I thunk the
dealer said, and may have gotten a bit confubulated in me noggin.

Problem was probably entirely due to user stupidity - after the last
run of the season, I ran the engine in a bin of fresh water to flush.
Forgot to run the last of the fuel out of the engine before switching
off, and only remembered half way home (4 hours away).
Swore I'd do it on the next trip, wrote reminders several places that
I couldn't miss, forgot completely.
Petrol in the carb probably varnished up the passage over the winter.

By all means clean the filter, check the bulb, hose and tank - these
are easily checked and eliminated, but it sounds close enough to the
problem I had...

You could a can of carb cleaner, but if the passageway is completely
blocked, it might not work.

When was the last time the engine ran?

Regards,

bookieb

(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ...
I suggest the fault is the tank, not the motor. The tank is leaking air. The
squeeze ball charges the tank. The overpressure tank then feeds fuel to the
carb. Check your seals, gaskets, hose and hose fittings.
Steve

This confuses me. I have always kept the air valve open on top of the
fill cap for the tank, the pressure is equal to that outside the tank.
The ball has checks in which allow me to build up some kind of
pressure in the engine, I have always assumed that once the engine
starts, it somehow draws fuel from the tank, in line with the check
valves. This could only happen if the engine were somehow sucking fuel
from the tank. In fact when I leave the fill cap vent closed, it sucks
the tank down (red plastic portable tank).

Anyway, I have had a better look this morning and I see that the valve
I refered to below does not have an electrical lead, it is more likely
a vacume lead, maybe some kind of vacume actuated idle control (idle
air bypass)? The choke knob feed directly into this unit which also
has two fuel lines running to the carb, one low, one high, could this
also control idle fuel?

Anyway, to the fuel pump, can someone explain how it works on this
engine, that will help me to find it! Is it vacume, or mechanical, in
the meantime I will be looking today in better light, thanks again,
Scotty, Keep em' coming...



Nevermind... I found the fuel pump. It's that thing with springs,
valves, and diaphrams that sproings apart when you remove the wrong
two screws Everyone carries this pump, well except this year, called
7 dealers, all out of stock till the end of vacation week, ****.
Anyway, looking at the pump it seems pretty simple, there is an airway
that I imagine leads to the intake, so I guess the diaphram is run by
fluctuations in the intake vacume, makes perfect sense to me. Anyway,
hopefully this is indeed the problem, I can't see anything else right
off hand that would create a fuel or vacume leak anywhere else on the
engine.
Now off to see why the heck the one year old water pump on the 3 horse
merc stopped working... I hate this stuff, I just want to build boats
and go fishin'. Scotty

(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ...
I suggest the fault is the tank, not the motor. The tank is leaking air. The
squeeze ball charges the tank. The overpressure tank then feeds fuel to the
carb. Check your seals, gaskets, hose and hose fittings.
Steve

This confuses me. I have always kept the air valve open on top of the
fill cap for the tank, the pressure is equal to that outside the tank.
The ball has checks in which allow me to build up some kind of
pressure in the engine, I have always assumed that once the engine
starts, it somehow draws fuel from the tank, in line with the check
valves. This could only happen if the engine were somehow sucking fuel
from the tank. In fact when I leave the fill cap vent closed, it sucks
the tank down (red plastic portable tank).

Anyway, I have had a better look this morning and I see that the valve
I refered to below does not have an electrical lead, it is more likely
a vacume lead, maybe some kind of vacume actuated idle control (idle
air bypass)? The choke knob feed directly into this unit which also
has two fuel lines running to the carb, one low, one high, could this
also control idle fuel?

Anyway, to the fuel pump, can someone explain how it works on this
engine, that will help me to find it! Is it vacume, or mechanical, in
the meantime I will be looking today in better light, thanks again,
Scotty, Keep em' coming...



Nevermind... I found the fuel pump. It's that thing with springs,
valves, and diaphrams that sproings apart when you remove the wrong
two screws Everyone carries this pump, well except this year, called
7 dealers, all out of stock till the end of vacation week, ****.
Anyway, looking at the pump it seems pretty simple, there is an airway
that I imagine leads to the intake, so I guess the diaphram is run by
fluctuations in the intake vacume, makes perfect sense to me. Anyway,
hopefully this is indeed the problem, I can't see anything else right
off hand that would create a fuel or vacume leak anywhere else on the
engine.
Now off to see why the heck the one year old water pump on the 3 horse
merc stopped working... I hate this stuff, I just want to build boats
and go fishin'. Scotty


Well, anyone? Am I right about the intake pressure fluctuations
driving the pump? Looks like it. There is a flame arrest plate in
front of the diapharam, this pretty much confirms my suspicions
especially since it was clean, no backfires. I know they would not
drive the fuel pump with exaust. Anyway, I get the pump on friday, I
will let you know.

BTW, any music lovers out there. Mom passed bout a year ago and her
Lowrey "Director" is now for sale, 5 years old, one owner, currently
stored in climate control by Lowrey, can be shipped from Connecticut,
contact me, Scotty, at smallboats.com for further details, Thanks.

(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
(Backyard Renegade) wrote in message . com...
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ...
I suggest the fault is the tank, not the motor. The tank is leaking air. The
squeeze ball charges the tank. The overpressure tank then feeds fuel to the
carb. Check your seals, gaskets, hose and hose fittings.
Steve

This confuses me. I have always kept the air valve open on top of the
fill cap for the tank, the pressure is equal to that outside the tank.
The ball has checks in which allow me to build up some kind of
pressure in the engine, I have always assumed that once the engine
starts, it somehow draws fuel from the tank, in line with the check
valves. This could only happen if the engine were somehow sucking fuel
from the tank. In fact when I leave the fill cap vent closed, it sucks
the tank down (red plastic portable tank).

Anyway, I have had a better look this morning and I see that the valve
I refered to below does not have an electrical lead, it is more likely
a vacume lead, maybe some kind of vacume actuated idle control (idle
air bypass)? The choke knob feed directly into this unit which also
has two fuel lines running to the carb, one low, one high, could this
also control idle fuel?

Anyway, to the fuel pump, can someone explain how it works on this
engine, that will help me to find it! Is it vacume, or mechanical, in
the meantime I will be looking today in better light, thanks again,
Scotty, Keep em' coming...



Nevermind... I found the fuel pump. It's that thing with springs,
valves, and diaphrams that sproings apart when you remove the wrong
two screws Everyone carries this pump, well except this year, called
7 dealers, all out of stock till the end of vacation week, ****.
Anyway, looking at the pump it seems pretty simple, there is an airway
that I imagine leads to the intake, so I guess the diaphram is run by
fluctuations in the intake vacume, makes perfect sense to me. Anyway,
hopefully this is indeed the problem, I can't see anything else right
off hand that would create a fuel or vacume leak anywhere else on the
engine.
Now off to see why the heck the one year old water pump on the 3 horse
merc stopped working... I hate this stuff, I just want to build boats
and go fishin'. Scotty


Well, anyone? Am I right about the intake pressure fluctuations
driving the pump? Looks like it. There is a flame arrest plate in
front of the diapharam, this pretty much confirms my suspicions
especially since it was clean, no backfires. I know they would not
drive the fuel pump with exaust. Anyway, I get the pump on friday, I
will let you know.


Well, it did not work, the fuel pump and plug wires too, cause it
makes sense since I had new plugs and all. Anyway, I am thinking it is
carb now after setting all the other perams'. Anyway, I will keep you
posted even more... Building a big skiff now, I will post some pics
soon.

Scotty