rhys wrote:
On 27 May 2004 07:54:14 -0700, (Michael
Sutton) wrote:


do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do
for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire
in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going
to this expense.


Well, perhaps my experience will be instructive.

I have a 1973 racer cruiser made by Ontario Yachts, a reputable firm
known for solid boats (Ontario 28, 32, Niagara 35, etc.)

The electric wires in the boat are original except where I've changed
them. I intend to change all of them eventually, as I intend to
relocate the batteries, charger, etc. under a settee next to the mast
for better weight distribution.

The panel is little metal toggle switch with glass fuse holders with a
common positive side. Most of the DC power lines are very narrow, 20
or 22 gauge, to a terminal block in the head and aft and forward to
running lights. I replaced all mast wires with 12 gauge to spreader
lights, steaming and deck lights and 14 gauge to trilight and anchor
light. All DC wiring is tinned and stranded.

Wow, what a difference. Wait until I upgrade the cabin wiring and
replace the panel. The only exception to this is perhaps I will leave
the cabin lights with the old wiring, which is not in bad condition,
if I switch from 12 VDC auto light bulbs to LEDs...the LEDs draw so
little it is hardly worth the effort of drawing the cables through
cabinetry, etc.

I also replaced the stern light wire with 16 gauge to the panel.
Again, a gratifying jump in brightness.

All new hard-wired devices, like gas/propane alarm and solenoid, depth
sounder, etc. get 14 or 16 gauge Ancor wire to the panel depending on
draw. As I have a stock 35 amp alternator on my Atomic 4, I try to
avoid heavy draws where possible.

On the AC side, yes, there is obviously 10 gauge exterior Romex-type
wire going from the hook-up to a small 30 amp fuse box which uses the
"shotgun cartridge" style of brass-ended fuses. They haven't blown in
the five years I've owned the boat. The two pairs of AC outlets on the
boat are properly grounded, but the Romex is beginning to get
tired-looking. When I get a new panel next year I will replace it with
10 gauge marine wire because I want proper AC circuit breakers, a
hard-wired charger, a small inverter, full isolation and two extra
paired outlets, one in the V-berth so I can run power tools in the
anchor locker, and one in the nav station for a PC as we are getting
wireless networking at the YC and I like to download weather maps
before I cruise.

My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.

Hope this helps. I am learning as well and quite enjoying myself. I
won't miss those little glass fuses, I can tell you.

R.

If you install the 'right' connectors, one at bow, one at stern, you
will energise the prongs sticking out of the unused one. If someone
removes that weather cover, full line power is available for prying
fingers. Dangerous, unless you have a switch over to select only
one input plug.

Terry K

and ONLY if there is no DC current leakage, or DC grounds wired to the AC
grounds. Of course, this NEVER happens. ;-)

--


Keith
__
Pardon my driving, I'm reloading.
"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:%D8vc.3368$sI.620@attbi_s52...
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote...

You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected.
Just
have them in every circuit.

ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, and ONLY if it is the first
outlet in the circuit and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired
correctly!

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:%D8vc.3368$sI.620@attbi_s52...
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote...

You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected.

ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining,

Most do. In fact, I can't recall seeing any in the last 20 years that
didn't.

and ONLY if it is the first outlet in the circuit

Certainly not a hard thing to do.

and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired
correctly!

If you can't wire it right, hire someone who can.

Rod

Rod,
I assure you that the earth as referenced by your hull is different than the
the copper plated steel stake at the distribution transformer. There are
rules in every country that prevent power entry equalization busses to be
much longer than a meter for very good reason. Please keep in mind that an
electric impulse propagates across a conductor at 2 nonoseconds per foot. In
a drag race, an electric pulse will travel to a closer point faster than a
further point, even without consideration of path quality. In that light,
ground is not ground the world around. In real life, there can be thousands
of volts in potential difference between two functioning earth references
and very often is. It is one of the reasons that a lightning strike a mile
away can zap all your appliances without striking your property. Ground
problems are very complex, difficult to analyse and very expensive to
resolve. Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to
earth in a building. It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes
and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street.
However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with the
earth across millions of square meters of surface. In comparison, the
distribution transformer has only the surface area of the ground rod to use
and I will point out that the quality of the connection is subject to rod
corrosion and the mineral content of the soil it contacts. It is not unusual
for the electric company to deposit hundred pound bags of salt around this
rod in areas of poor soil conductivity and rinse the salt into the soil with
water to help alleviate this problem. Commercial ships (and myself) use
isolation transformers to alleviate this corrosion risk. In that way the
electric energy is magnetically coupled aboard and no circuit reference
exists to the power net. As an individual, you are in control of your
electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and
maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use. The question you
have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of other
people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth
connection at the dock.
Steve
"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...


Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line.


To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct
violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never
pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it
wire this way it could create issues with the insurance.

You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to
separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity
of
the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the
weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause
problems.

Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection.

Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you
could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then
make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in
water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't
corroded
away.


Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard

Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying
that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path
through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true.

Rod

Keith,
GFCI breakers make certain that outgoing current always matches incoming
current. They do not monitor earth. They monitor phase to phase and phase to
neutral with a bridge circuit. There should never be more than 50 milliamps
of current on the safety circuit and on a boat there must be "0" amperes for
corrosion reasons. On a boat, there can only be one earth reference for all
loads both AC and DC. DC return is not earth, it must also be completely
separate.
Steve

"Keith" wrote in message
...
and ONLY if there is no DC current leakage, or DC grounds wired to the AC
grounds. Of course, this NEVER happens. ;-)

--


Keith
__
Pardon my driving, I'm reloading.
"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:%D8vc.3368$sI.620@attbi_s52...
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote...

You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the
first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected.
Just
have them in every circuit.

ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, and ONLY if it is the first
outlet in the circuit and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired
correctly!

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:08:59 GMT, Terry Spragg
wrote:



If you install the 'right' connectors, one at bow, one at stern, you
will energise the prongs sticking out of the unused one. If someone
removes that weather cover, full line power is available for prying
fingers. Dangerous, unless you have a switch over to select only
one input plug.

Perhaps I was unclear on that point: I would of course install a full
break point switch between the two plugs. Either, never both.

Fact is, I would use the bow plug 95% of the time as I dock bow in.
When I travel, however, and am stern in or on a wall with a bit of a
distance to a plug, or when I am in the cradle on the hard all winter,
I would revert to the stern plug.

Thanks.

R.

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:15:52 -0400, Sam wrote:


Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:
snip

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.
Thanks. I posted a response earlier that covered this. A manual switch
would totally disconnect one plug from the other, avoiding the
admittedly dangerous situation of an energised circuit.

I have a two year old. I would like him to do foredeck one day. So I
try to avoid electrocuting him G as it's bad for morale.


And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

I would use 10 AWG tinned stranded for a 30 amp circuit. The runs are
not so long that cost is an issue. You can't go far wrong slightly
oversized, as the wife notes G.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel.

Already done with the existing two AC outlets in the galley and the
head. Same with every new (since we bought the place in '98) outlet in
my home.

I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

Your heart would have popped.

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said.

Not an issue as of yet. I cruise Lake Ontario, and beer is a bigger
hazard than salt water.

Thanks for the warning.

R.

"Rod McInnis" wrote...

ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining,

Most do. In fact, I can't recall seeing any in the last 20 years that
didn't.

I've installed a couple, before I knew to look for it.


and ONLY if it is the first outlet in the circuit

Certainly not a hard thing to do.

....assuming the installer is electrical system savvy...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Rod,


Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to
earth in a building.

Are you referring to the safety ground (a non current carrying circuit) or
the "neutral" ground?

It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes
and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street.

What country are you in? If you had said "instead of" I might agree with
you, but my experience sure doesn't support "as well as".

I admit to not being well versed in the various building codes across the
USA, but I have done a fair amount of house and business wiring here in
California. I have also built a number of products that are sold in the USA
and have had to pass UL and CSA safety agency approval.

The standard configuration that I have always encountered is that "Neutral"
connects back to the power company's transformer (which usually has a
connection to a copper rod driven into the ground) while the safety ground
is referenced to a copper rod driven into the ground at the point of entry.

In addition to the safety ground wired throughout the house it is common for
certain appliances and equipment to establish a separate safety ground.
This is especially important when installing equipment into older homes that
were not wired with the three terminal receptacles. It is very common for
the washing machine to have a extra safety ground. Dishwashers, garbage
disposals, gas dryers, and other appliances that connect to both electrical
and gas/water lines may establish a separate path to ground just by their
very nature.

Many businesses, especially those that work with sensitive electronic
components, will go to elaborate steps to ground all the work benches as
part of their anti-static protection.

Here in the USA it is common for people to install satellite dishes on their
rooftops. The standard installation kit includes a separate ground rod that
provides a safety ground connection to the satellite dish. This in turn
gets connected to the received via the coax cable.

Likewise, cable TV introduces another version of what could be considered
"ground". The shield of the cable coax is connected to ground at the cable
company's equipment. This makes the entire chassis of the cable box "cable
ground". If the cable box has a grounded plug then the two are connected at
that point. Every piece of equipment that connects to the cable box,
including the TV, VCR, stereo, etc. will then have their chassis ground
referenced to some combination of house entry ground, satellite dish ground
and cable company ground.

It is unwise and perhaps illegal to use a water pipe as "the" safety ground.
It would be very difficult to maintain isolation between separate references
and here in the USA it is intentionally done all the time.


However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with
the
earth across millions of square meters of surface.

Yes, but the water itself (especially freshwater) is not a perfect
conductor. The amount of surface area that the water has to the ground is
irrelevant as the water to earth resistance is not significant compared to
the resistance of the water alone. In addition, unless you have a steel
hulled boat the surface area of possibly energized parts of the boat (prop,
shaft, rudder, strut, zincs and through hull fittings) will be very small.



As an individual, you are in control of your
electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and
maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use.

I challenge the concept that breaking the accepted and standard method of
grounding your boat and providing your own is "good practice".

The question you
have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of
other
people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth
connection at the dock.

You I fear most of all.

Are you implying that you rely on the water to provide your safety ground
connection? Or have you driven a copper rod into the earth below your dock
and religiously connect it? Do you inspect this installation on a regular
basis (including diving down to inspect the entire length of the rod?)

If you installed an appropriate ground and maintain it properly then you
will be safe. Please convert your boat back to a standard configuration
before you sell it or let anyone else use it.

If you are relying on the water to provide your safety ground then you are
the dangerous one. Okay, you mentioned that you use an isolation
transformer, which would certainly reduce the risk considerably. Without
the isolation transformer, however, your advice is an accident waiting to
happen.

Rod

Rod McInnis wrote:
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...

Rod,



Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to
earth in a building.


Are you referring to the safety ground (a non current carrying circuit) or
the "neutral" ground?


It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes
and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street.


What country are you in? If you had said "instead of" I might agree with
you, but my experience sure doesn't support "as well as".

I admit to not being well versed in the various building codes across the
USA, but I have done a fair amount of house and business wiring here in
California. I have also built a number of products that are sold in the USA
and have had to pass UL and CSA safety agency approval.

The standard configuration that I have always encountered is that "Neutral"
connects back to the power company's transformer (which usually has a
connection to a copper rod driven into the ground) while the safety ground
is referenced to a copper rod driven into the ground at the point of entry.

In addition to the safety ground wired throughout the house it is common for
certain appliances and equipment to establish a separate safety ground.
This is especially important when installing equipment into older homes that
were not wired with the three terminal receptacles. It is very common for
the washing machine to have a extra safety ground. Dishwashers, garbage
disposals, gas dryers, and other appliances that connect to both electrical
and gas/water lines may establish a separate path to ground just by their
very nature.

Many businesses, especially those that work with sensitive electronic
components, will go to elaborate steps to ground all the work benches as
part of their anti-static protection.

Here in the USA it is common for people to install satellite dishes on their
rooftops. The standard installation kit includes a separate ground rod that
provides a safety ground connection to the satellite dish. This in turn
gets connected to the received via the coax cable.

Likewise, cable TV introduces another version of what could be considered
"ground". The shield of the cable coax is connected to ground at the cable
company's equipment. This makes the entire chassis of the cable box "cable
ground". If the cable box has a grounded plug then the two are connected at
that point. Every piece of equipment that connects to the cable box,
including the TV, VCR, stereo, etc. will then have their chassis ground
referenced to some combination of house entry ground, satellite dish ground
and cable company ground.

It is unwise and perhaps illegal to use a water pipe as "the" safety ground.
It would be very difficult to maintain isolation between separate references
and here in the USA it is intentionally done all the time.



However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with

the

earth across millions of square meters of surface.


Yes, but the water itself (especially freshwater) is not a perfect
conductor. The amount of surface area that the water has to the ground is
irrelevant as the water to earth resistance is not significant compared to
the resistance of the water alone. In addition, unless you have a steel
hulled boat the surface area of possibly energized parts of the boat (prop,
shaft, rudder, strut, zincs and through hull fittings) will be very small.




As an individual, you are in control of your
electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and
maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use.


I challenge the concept that breaking the accepted and standard method of
grounding your boat and providing your own is "good practice".


The question you
have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of

other

people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth
connection at the dock.


You I fear most of all.

Are you implying that you rely on the water to provide your safety ground
connection? Or have you driven a copper rod into the earth below your dock
and religiously connect it? Do you inspect this installation on a regular
basis (including diving down to inspect the entire length of the rod?)

If you installed an appropriate ground and maintain it properly then you
will be safe. Please convert your boat back to a standard configuration
before you sell it or let anyone else use it.

If you are relying on the water to provide your safety ground then you are
the dangerous one. Okay, you mentioned that you use an isolation
transformer, which would certainly reduce the risk considerably. Without
the isolation transformer, however, your advice is an accident waiting to
happen.

Rod


Well, it seems to me that once 'at sea' a vessel is isolated from
external electrical distribution system threats, such as an
energised earth connected to one side of a power source, requiring
only a single further connection to electrocute any nearby person
standing on God's natural green earth, which was provided in an
un-energised state, and which no-one has the right to energise,
poison, paint, or otherwise deface without having license, posting
adequate warnings, and willingly paying any damage claims shown to
involve current through the earth, which should be absolutely anathema.

Grr. Yes, I am ****ed off about this, and I maintain that the only
reason for it's defense by hydro is because of ancient legal
precedent protecting them from electrocutions caused by stepping on
to the face of the earth. If not for the 'earth safety neutral'
connection, anyone holding the black wire in his teeth could still
walk barefoot on the earth without danger.

If all devices were wired in a bifilar manner only, there could be
no electrocution danger from touching earth. Current cannot flow
without 2 connections to the power source. One of them should not be
universally mandated for the convenience of the electrical power
industry, and to the detriment of every freehold citizen.

The electrical industry has been hiding behind government for a
century, enabled only by incorrect politicians who have made the
deadly practice en 'essential' feature of the system. So, we see an
early attempt to minimise wire useage costing us an extra connector,
the earth return / not conductor / killing messenger and an
imaginary 'neutral', or ground, by the majic of undemocratic
illogical politicians and whoring lawyers, who listen to inventors,
not refiners of technology. Unfortunately, no-one should claim to
have invented electricity, or any of it's roots. It was discovered,
and continues to be refined and universally owned, not be
patentable, except for short times.

It could be done differently, and doing so would not cost as much as
was recently wasted in Irag. 'Double insulated' tools (which have
only 2 wire plugs) is a step in the right direction farther than
neccessary, and such similar practice must become the new standard
for all of the industry. All chassis should be completely isolated
from any electrical connection, even the dirt, as was definitely not
the practice anywhere until recently.

The concept of 'ground' itself is flawed. As a technician, I
understand that 'ground' is purely an arbitrary standard existing
only at the end of my test meter's ground (or, 'reference') probe.

All AC power has a wavelenth associated with it's frequency. The
voltage at one end of an AC wire is not the same as at the other,
because of phase delay. At 60 hz, the wavelenght is about 3000
miles. The voltage on the AC system is not simultaneously the same
say, on opposite coasts. Every generator's local reference is
naturally different in time from the other's, so they can all feed
into each other without burning up. The concept of ground or earth,
is irrellevant at AC for power, the only important measurements that
can be made are bifilar, very local, and must be understood as
difficult to accomplish for flesh, unless you wire the earth itself,
save for lightning. Electricians wear rubber insulated boots. Why?
because barefoot, they would be in danger for only one reason, the
'safety' ground.

"Modern" earth ground safety dogma is a murderous myth, defended by
Edison et al to preserve their sacrosanct immunity from
responsibility for originally expropriating the entire earth for
use an an electrical conductor from the beginning of electrical use.

An illegal theft from the beginning, unneccessary, complicating,
stupid, defended by politicians, and now, even by dumbed down
engineers who whole heartedly swallow the rationale they are fed in
school, where free thought is rigorously stamped out by lawyers,
teachers and councellors.

Crazily (?) some survivors can't resist thinking freely, even *with*
flourides.

Doubt your foundations! You will find those you can trust, at sea,
Billy!

Life is dangerous. Don't let the stupid ones win. You are Darwin.
Take this part of a continuing diatribe with all the salt you can
afford. Borrow more.

We all live on the slope of a volcano in whom's hot guts continues a
juggling act involving fizzy gobs of locally slow neutrons and fluid
heavy elements, all in zero gee, a spherical atomic hell, completely
not understood. Get used to it.

Why go to Mars? Because we can? Because some one else might? Sailors
have gone to sea in ships for long voyages since wood was found to
float. But should public health and education get the money instead?

Would safety result? For whom?

Some power structures exist best in an atmosphere of great fear.

Everything is relative.

Terry k