There have been a lot of good comments made - If you read them and research
the detail to qualify the information provided.

My contribution to this discussion is the following URL to Boat US
Electrical.
There are many other good articles there as well.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm






"Ytter" wrote in message
...
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring
boats.Could you give me some of your expertise?
Thank You,
Ytter

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote:

Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you
cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone
has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is
going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out
and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no
bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job.

Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the
connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a
crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no.

Steve

In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a
crimped on connection.

considered by whom? certainly not the electrical industry at any time in the
last 35 years.

but, stveie, go ahead and solder. you know more than the pros do anyway.

[geesh, what dumb clucks]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote:

Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you
cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone
has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is
going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out
and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no
bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job.

Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the
connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a
crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no.

Steve

Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has
been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no
marinas or yacht clubs, no financing.

Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed
insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed.
If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him
why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules
allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole
means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense.

ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical
connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so
located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the
solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than
1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.

Steve

I would think solid wire would be inadvisable for the same reason you don't
find it on automobiles. The vehicle moves and shakes, and in the case of
many boats it flexes. This would cause the wire no mater how well secured
to move and flex. It will inevitable succomb to metal fatigue over time.
In some cases it might take years, but it will fail. In some cases it could
fail fairly quickly.
--
Public Fishing Forums
Fishing Link Index
www.YumaBassMan.com

webmaster
at
YumaBsssMan
dot
com
"Ytter" wrote in message
...
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring
boats.Could you give me some of your expertise?
Thank You,
Ytter

steveie, go stand in The Sophist Pig Corner.

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff)
wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote:

Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say
you
cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As
someone
has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat,
it is
going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be
ripped out
and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable
and no
bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job.

Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the
connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a
crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no.

Steve

Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system
has
been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale,
no
marinas or yacht clubs, no financing.

Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed
insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed.
If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him
why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules
allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole
means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense.

ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical
connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so
located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the
solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than
1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.

Steve

ABYC E-11 is being revised to eliminate the allowance for soldered/crimped
terminations and specify crimped only.
Charlie


"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say
you
cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As
someone
has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat,
it is
going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be
ripped out
and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable
and no
bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job.

Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code
for good reason. It's not safe.


BB

Don't get people stressed out. Boats are NOT covered by the NEC - it is
for
buildings. I don't know about NFPA but I suspect they are also exempt
there
too. If you solder the connections in your boat, it is perfectly o.k.
according to ABYC.

Some stuff from ABYC (stuff snipped)
http://www.cmsquick.com/tech_abyc_E.html :

Wiring connections shall be designed and installed to make mechanical and
electrical joints without damage to the conductors (E8&9).

Twist-on connectors (wire nuts) shall not be used (E8&9).

Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any
circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less
than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8)

Solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping
tools designed for the connector used and which will produce a connection
meeting the requirements of ABYC (E8.15.14 and E9.15.K4).


--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)

wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:47 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote:

QLW wrote:
I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail.
I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some
negative reason but I've not found it.

Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long
enough to last until the end of the warranty.

Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code
for good reason. It's not safe.

The National Electrical Code is for structures and even then is not
universally applicable. It is not the code followed in Chicago for
instance. Also different countries in the world have different codes.
You cannot just state that everything that is against a specific code
is unsafe and should not be allowed without looking at what the code
is meant to cover.

National Fire Protection Association codes are meant to protect
structures against fire damage and loss. They are consensus standards
and are not the ultimate in fire protection other than for buildings.

OSHA took the NFPA standards (consensus standards) and some of the NEC
and made them into regulatory standards for protection of workers.
Some of them do not do that and make no sense in that context. So
again - you cannot just apply standards without knowing where the
standards have come from and what their purpose is. Some standards
are absolutely minimum standards.

So maybe wires should not be soldered because it 'isn't safe', but you
can't determine whether it is safe or not just by citing the
standards. You have to know the reason and logic (if any) behind the
standards. Conflicting standards can often be cited and in this case
ABYC standards (note - these standards are FOR BOATS) say, or have
said in the past, that soldering wires is not unsafe.



grandma Rosalie

wrote:



I mentioned NEC and NFPA as recognized standards for good reason. They are the
result of not just engineering, but also compiled and analyzed data from actual
events. The ABYC standards tend to flow from standards such as these. The ABYC
standards in fact, are in the process of being updated to match these tried and
true, universally accepted standards. Solder is sometimes okay for signal wires,
not power wires. I have already posted some of the things that are bad about it
earlier in this thread. This is nothing new.

NEC and NFPA are a conglomeration of standards written in the past
(sometimes as long ago as 1935) to which have been added regulations and
standards yearly until present day. Quite often, standards in one
section contradict standards in other sections. They fail to take into
account changes in materials as well as changes in technology. While
some of these codes are based on good engineering, many of them are
obsolete. Basing a boats DC power wiring standards on high current high
amperage AC wiring standards for residential or industrial applications
is foolish.

Enough arguing. Thanks for your opinion. You've heard mine.

I'm done.


--
I ain't looking for trouble,.....but you can find it here.

On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:52 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:38:12 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote:

Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you
cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone
has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is
going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out
and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no
bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job.

Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the
connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a
crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no.

Steve

Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has
been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no
marinas or yacht clubs, no financing.

Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed
insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed.
If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him
why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules
allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole
means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense.

ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical
connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so
located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the
solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than
1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.

Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one.

No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical
connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically
superior to a crimped joint. And if it's properly supported, that
removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the
stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring
on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and
vibration on the solder junction.

I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring
will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite
the ABYC allowing it? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys
even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. In fact, it's a rare
boat indeed that doesn't violate any of the ABYC rules. One that meets
all of them is pretty much a gauranteed pass.

Steve