I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

wrote:
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan


I have always put the smallest piece down first, the largest last. The
reason? So as to have the smoothest finished lay-up.

I didn't know the West System recommended otherwise. They are probably
right. They know their stuff.

I will probably continue doing it as I do unless someone makes a good
case for doing it otherwise.

Jay,
I would re-read BOTH the Gudgeon Brothers literature and Don Casey's book .
.. . carefully.

There are subtle differences between repairing a hole from the OUTSIDE, or
from the INSIDE. It also depends on whether you are 'laying up' or
'repairing'. It sounds to me that you are looking at the the instructions on
pgs. 63 - 67, and the illustrations on pg. 65.

If you will note, the bottom sketch shows the ' . . .alternating layers of
MAT and CLOTH.}. This is an exaggerated detail of the bevel that is all
around the repair It is a type of 'scarf joint' to give you the strongest
connection between the 'skin' over the repaired / replaced core and the
remainder of the decking. If you are talking about STRUCTURAL strength -
that depends on the repair you did on the core. When 'mat' is mentioned, it
indicates that there is some substantial thickness involved. Also, the last
layer should be cloth. {followed by a couple of coats of Gelcoat or some
other topcoating}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

On my first boat (a stitch and glue dinghy), I carefully read both the
Gougeon Brothers and System Three's directions and put the small tape down
first with the larger on top. I did not put on sufficient fairing compound,
so when I sanded, the wider tape was quickly cut down by the ridge at the
selvedge edge of the narrower layer. Since then I've been putting the
narrow tape on top. I really don't think it matters much.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Ron Magen" wrote in message
news:t0Fmg.515$uo.477@trnddc07...
Jay,
I would re-read BOTH the Gudgeon Brothers literature and Don Casey's book
.
. . carefully.

There are subtle differences between repairing a hole from the OUTSIDE, or
from the INSIDE. It also depends on whether you are 'laying up' or
'repairing'. It sounds to me that you are looking at the the instructions
on
pgs. 63 - 67, and the illustrations on pg. 65.

If you will note, the bottom sketch shows the ' . . .alternating layers of
MAT and CLOTH.}. This is an exaggerated detail of the bevel that is all
around the repair It is a type of 'scarf joint' to give you the strongest
connection between the 'skin' over the repaired / replaced core and the
remainder of the decking. If you are talking about STRUCTURAL strength -
that depends on the repair you did on the core. When 'mat' is mentioned,
it
indicates that there is some substantial thickness involved. Also, the
last
layer should be cloth. {followed by a couple of coats of Gelcoat or some
other topcoating}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

Yes, I have read both West System books and Don Casey's book very
carefully. That's why I discover the difference between their two
approaches. Otherwise, I might not even notice the difference.

I don't know which West System literature that you are referring to
because I cannot find the examples that you have mentioned in the West
System books that I have. The one that I read the most often is called
"Fiberglass Boat Repair & Maintenance" (around 86 pages) (June 2004
Edition). They use the "largest one first / smallest one last"
approach consistantly through out the whole literature. Examples:
- To stiffen the floor and stringers (p. 17 18, and 20)
- To repair hull from the outside (p. 25 and 27)
- To re-attach outer skin to the deck from above (p. 33)
- To re-attach outer skin to the transom from outside (p. 37)
- To lay up a new outer skin to the transom from outside (p. 38)

That's just the opposition to the approach that I see in Don Casey's
book.

I figure that either approach is probably fine.

Jay Chan

Ron Magen wrote:
Jay,
I would re-read BOTH the Gudgeon Brothers literature and Don Casey's book .
. . carefully.

There are subtle differences between repairing a hole from the OUTSIDE, or
from the INSIDE. It also depends on whether you are 'laying up' or
'repairing'. It sounds to me that you are looking at the the instructions on
pgs. 63 - 67, and the illustrations on pg. 65.

If you will note, the bottom sketch shows the ' . . .alternating layers of
MAT and CLOTH.}. This is an exaggerated detail of the bevel that is all
around the repair It is a type of 'scarf joint' to give you the strongest
connection between the 'skin' over the repaired / replaced core and the
remainder of the decking. If you are talking about STRUCTURAL strength -
that depends on the repair you did on the core. When 'mat' is mentioned, it
indicates that there is some substantial thickness involved. Also, the last
layer should be cloth. {followed by a couple of coats of Gelcoat or some
other topcoating}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

You mean your copy of West System book also says to put the largest
piece last. This is odd because this is the opposite of what I read in
the June-2004 edition of West System literature called "Fiberglass Boat
Repair & Maintenance". I have a feeling that they might have changed
their approach within the last couple years -- not sure.

As what your experience showed, we may encounter a small problem if we
put the largest piece last. We can sand away some of the largest piece
of fiberglass cloth if we don't put enough fairing compound to protect
the fiberglass cloth, and may reduce the strength of the largest
fiberglass cloth. On the other hand, if we put the smallest piece
last, we will only sand away the edge of the fiberglass cloth. I guess
that may be the reason why West System suggest putting the smallest
piece last. I guess I will stick with the approach that West System
has suggested.

Anyway, as what you have said, this probably doesn't matter much.
Either approach will be fine if we put enough fairing compound to
protect the fiberglass cloth.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Jay Chan

derbyrm wrote:
On my first boat (a stitch and glue dinghy), I carefully read both the
Gougeon Brothers and System Three's directions and put the small tape down
first with the larger on top. I did not put on sufficient fairing compound,
so when I sanded, the wider tape was quickly cut down by the ridge at the
selvedge edge of the narrower layer. Since then I've been putting the
narrow tape on top. I really don't think it matters much.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Ron Magen" wrote in message
news:t0Fmg.515$uo.477@trnddc07...
Jay,
I would re-read BOTH the Gudgeon Brothers literature and Don Casey's book
.
. . carefully.

There are subtle differences between repairing a hole from the OUTSIDE, or
from the INSIDE. It also depends on whether you are 'laying up' or
'repairing'. It sounds to me that you are looking at the the instructions
on
pgs. 63 - 67, and the illustrations on pg. 65.

If you will note, the bottom sketch shows the ' . . .alternating layers of
MAT and CLOTH.}. This is an exaggerated detail of the bevel that is all
around the repair It is a type of 'scarf joint' to give you the strongest
connection between the 'skin' over the repaired / replaced core and the
remainder of the decking. If you are talking about STRUCTURAL strength -
that depends on the repair you did on the core. When 'mat' is mentioned,
it
indicates that there is some substantial thickness involved. Also, the
last
layer should be cloth. {followed by a couple of coats of Gelcoat or some
other topcoating}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

If you go from the smallest piece first you have a chance of trapping
concentric rings or squares of bubbles in the laminate. Sam

It's been some time since I read it, and I was paying attention to the
joining of plywood sheets along the edges, not patching a fiberglass hull.
What I read was "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction," and I watched their
video a couple of times.

That said, I still don't think it makes any structural difference.
Cosmetic? Yes, probably.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

wrote in message
oups.com...
You mean your copy of West System book also says to put the largest
piece last. This is odd because this is the opposite of what I read in
the June-2004 edition of West System literature called "Fiberglass Boat
Repair & Maintenance". I have a feeling that they might have changed
their approach within the last couple years -- not sure.

As what your experience showed, we may encounter a small problem if we
put the largest piece last. We can sand away some of the largest piece
of fiberglass cloth if we don't put enough fairing compound to protect
the fiberglass cloth, and may reduce the strength of the largest
fiberglass cloth. On the other hand, if we put the smallest piece
last, we will only sand away the edge of the fiberglass cloth. I guess
that may be the reason why West System suggest putting the smallest
piece last. I guess I will stick with the approach that West System
has suggested.

Anyway, as what you have said, this probably doesn't matter much.
Either approach will be fine if we put enough fairing compound to
protect the fiberglass cloth.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Jay Chan

derbyrm wrote:
On my first boat (a stitch and glue dinghy), I carefully read both the
Gougeon Brothers and System Three's directions and put the small tape
down
first with the larger on top. I did not put on sufficient fairing
compound,
so when I sanded, the wider tape was quickly cut down by the ridge at the
selvedge edge of the narrower layer. Since then I've been putting the
narrow tape on top. I really don't think it matters much.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Ron Magen" wrote in message
news:t0Fmg.515$uo.477@trnddc07...
Jay,
I would re-read BOTH the Gudgeon Brothers literature and Don Casey's
book
.
. . carefully.

There are subtle differences between repairing a hole from the OUTSIDE,
or
from the INSIDE. It also depends on whether you are 'laying up' or
'repairing'. It sounds to me that you are looking at the the
instructions
on
pgs. 63 - 67, and the illustrations on pg. 65.

If you will note, the bottom sketch shows the ' . . .alternating layers
of
MAT and CLOTH.}. This is an exaggerated detail of the bevel that is all
around the repair It is a type of 'scarf joint' to give you the
strongest
connection between the 'skin' over the repaired / replaced core and the
remainder of the decking. If you are talking about STRUCTURAL
strength -
that depends on the repair you did on the core. When 'mat' is
mentioned,
it
indicates that there is some substantial thickness involved. Also, the
last
layer should be cloth. {followed by a couple of coats of Gelcoat or
some
other topcoating}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered
edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

There's a simple fix for the smallest-piece-first method and the use of
fairing compound ...stop letting the tape cure in between applications of
tape. In other words, if you put the tape on wet-on-wet, then you don't
need to scrape, sand, fill with fairing compound, etcetera in between layers
just so you can properly taper the edges on the previous layer. The
"Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction" book describes this technique, and
also recommends pre-wetting the fiberglass tape prior to installation. I
find that in the majority of installations, that pre-wetting and
installation of glass wet-on-wet can be done, and only once in awhile is
there reason to take a different approach. Here's my pre-wetting box:

http://www.glacierboats.com/tongass/...3-1336_img.jpg

I've built seams with as many as 3 layers of glass with the wet-on-wet
pre-wetting method. I lay down the widest tape in the box seen above, wet
it out with just barely enough epoxy to wet it out properly, then lay down
the medium width tape on top of it and wet it out, then the narrowest tape
on top of that and wet it out. If you keep trying to use 'barely enough'
epoxy and let it absorb into the glass tape at it's own rate (don't rush
it), then you'll get an optimal layup right in the pre-wetting box. Roll it
up, carry it to the boat, and unroll it along the seem and massage/stroke it
into place with gloved hands, narrowest-width tape against the fillet. The
outer layers of glass naturally press the inner layers smooths and liquid
epoxy will naturally fill the edge transition areas and what not. Done.
Scrape/sand/fair the outer tape when the whole stack has cured.

Brian D


wrote in message
oups.com...
You mean your copy of West System book also says to put the largest
piece last. This is odd because this is the opposite of what I read in
the June-2004 edition of West System literature called "Fiberglass Boat
Repair & Maintenance". I have a feeling that they might have changed
their approach within the last couple years -- not sure.

As what your experience showed, we may encounter a small problem if we
put the largest piece last. We can sand away some of the largest piece
of fiberglass cloth if we don't put enough fairing compound to protect
the fiberglass cloth, and may reduce the strength of the largest
fiberglass cloth. On the other hand, if we put the smallest piece
last, we will only sand away the edge of the fiberglass cloth. I guess
that may be the reason why West System suggest putting the smallest
piece last. I guess I will stick with the approach that West System
has suggested.

Anyway, as what you have said, this probably doesn't matter much.
Either approach will be fine if we put enough fairing compound to
protect the fiberglass cloth.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Jay Chan

derbyrm wrote:
On my first boat (a stitch and glue dinghy), I carefully read both the
Gougeon Brothers and System Three's directions and put the small tape
down
first with the larger on top. I did not put on sufficient fairing
compound,
so when I sanded, the wider tape was quickly cut down by the ridge at the
selvedge edge of the narrower layer. Since then I've been putting the
narrow tape on top. I really don't think it matters much.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"Ron Magen" wrote in message
news:t0Fmg.515$uo.477@trnddc07...
Jay,
I would re-read BOTH the Gudgeon Brothers literature and Don Casey's
book
.
. . carefully.

There are subtle differences between repairing a hole from the OUTSIDE,
or
from the INSIDE. It also depends on whether you are 'laying up' or
'repairing'. It sounds to me that you are looking at the the
instructions
on
pgs. 63 - 67, and the illustrations on pg. 65.

If you will note, the bottom sketch shows the ' . . .alternating layers
of
MAT and CLOTH.}. This is an exaggerated detail of the bevel that is all
around the repair It is a type of 'scarf joint' to give you the
strongest
connection between the 'skin' over the repaired / replaced core and the
remainder of the decking. If you are talking about STRUCTURAL
strength -
that depends on the repair you did on the core. When 'mat' is
mentioned,
it
indicates that there is some substantial thickness involved. Also, the
last
layer should be cloth. {followed by a couple of coats of Gelcoat or
some
other topcoating}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to know the right way to lay down layers of fiberglass
clothes over a tapered edge of a fiberglass skin of a deck. Should I
lay down the largest piece first or the smallest piece of fiberglass
cloth first?

The balsa of the cored deck was rotten, and I needed to cut out the
outer skin of the deck (the outer skin was destroyed during the
process), removed the rotten core with good one. When I finally put
good core back in place, I will need to use epoxy and layers of
fiberglass cloths to replace the outerskin of the deck. I am supposed
to grind the edge of the sounding fiberglass skin into a tapered edge,
and then attach the edge of the fiberglass cloths over the tapered
edge
of the surrounding fiberglass skin.

The question is: Should I put the largest piece of fiberglass cloth
first and the smallest piece last like what West System has suggested?
Or should I put the smallest piece first and the largest piece last
like what Don Casey (author of "This Old Boat") has suggested?

I don't care which way "looks" best; all I care is which way can give
me the strongest deck.

Which way is the right way to me?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Jay Chan

On 2006-06-24 03:26:42 -0400, ray lunder said:

And don't forget to put a sheet of plastic between the core and resin
if you're working next to the core. (the foam reacts with the epoxy
and gasses, leaving voids).

This is rather bad advice. In almost all cases, you WANT THE RESIN AND
PATCH TO BOND TO THE CORE. Putting plastic between the core and the
resin leaves a void too, just not one filled with gasses. Most cores
DO NOT react to Epoxy by dissolving and gassing off... especially if
the core is a good end-grain balsa, which it is on the better boats. If
the core is not bonded to the repaired area, you have effectively
created a section that is pre-delaminated. DUH.