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Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
Rod,
I assure you that the earth as referenced by your hull is different than the the copper plated steel stake at the distribution transformer. There are rules in every country that prevent power entry equalization busses to be much longer than a meter for very good reason. Please keep in mind that an electric impulse propagates across a conductor at 2 nonoseconds per foot. In a drag race, an electric pulse will travel to a closer point faster than a further point, even without consideration of path quality. In that light, ground is not ground the world around. In real life, there can be thousands of volts in potential difference between two functioning earth references and very often is. It is one of the reasons that a lightning strike a mile away can zap all your appliances without striking your property. Ground problems are very complex, difficult to analyse and very expensive to resolve. Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to earth in a building. It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street. However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with the earth across millions of square meters of surface. In comparison, the distribution transformer has only the surface area of the ground rod to use and I will point out that the quality of the connection is subject to rod corrosion and the mineral content of the soil it contacts. It is not unusual for the electric company to deposit hundred pound bags of salt around this rod in areas of poor soil conductivity and rinse the salt into the soil with water to help alleviate this problem. Commercial ships (and myself) use isolation transformers to alleviate this corrosion risk. In that way the electric energy is magnetically coupled aboard and no circuit reference exists to the power net. As an individual, you are in control of your electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use. The question you have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of other people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth connection at the dock. Steve "Rod McInnis" wrote in message ... "Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... Secondly, when plugging in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line. To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it wire this way it could create issues with the insurance. You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity of the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause problems. Instead use a line to your boat earth for the safety connection. Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't corroded away. Remember, your hull will always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution transformer for the pier or yard Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true. Rod |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
Keith,
GFCI breakers make certain that outgoing current always matches incoming current. They do not monitor earth. They monitor phase to phase and phase to neutral with a bridge circuit. There should never be more than 50 milliamps of current on the safety circuit and on a boat there must be "0" amperes for corrosion reasons. On a boat, there can only be one earth reference for all loads both AC and DC. DC return is not earth, it must also be completely separate. Steve "Keith" wrote in message ... and ONLY if there is no DC current leakage, or DC grounds wired to the AC grounds. Of course, this NEVER happens. ;-) -- Keith __ Pardon my driving, I'm reloading. "John R Weiss" wrote in message news:%D8vc.3368$sI.620@attbi_s52... "Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote... You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected. Just have them in every circuit. ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, and ONLY if it is the first outlet in the circuit and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired correctly! |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:08:59 GMT, Terry Spragg
wrote: If you install the 'right' connectors, one at bow, one at stern, you will energise the prongs sticking out of the unused one. If someone removes that weather cover, full line power is available for prying fingers. Dangerous, unless you have a switch over to select only one input plug. Perhaps I was unclear on that point: I would of course install a full break point switch between the two plugs. Either, never both. Fact is, I would use the bow plug 95% of the time as I dock bow in. When I travel, however, and am stern in or on a wall with a bit of a distance to a plug, or when I am in the cradle on the hard all winter, I would revert to the stern plug. Thanks. R. |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:15:52 -0400, Sam wrote:
Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea: snip If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time. Thanks. I posted a response earlier that covered this. A manual switch would totally disconnect one plug from the other, avoiding the admittedly dangerous situation of an energised circuit. I have a two year old. I would like him to do foredeck one day. So I try to avoid electrocuting him G as it's bad for morale. And, since I have already barged in he Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance that should be followed, but bigger is better. I would use 10 AWG tinned stranded for a 30 amp circuit. The runs are not so long that cost is an issue. You can't go far wrong slightly oversized, as the wife notes G. Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. Already done with the existing two AC outlets in the galley and the head. Same with every new (since we bought the place in '98) outlet in my home. I got a dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have happened to me if it hadn't popped? Your heart would have popped. GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air, expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said. Not an issue as of yet. I cruise Lake Ontario, and beer is a bigger hazard than salt water. Thanks for the warning. R. |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
"Rod McInnis" wrote...
ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, Most do. In fact, I can't recall seeing any in the last 20 years that didn't. I've installed a couple, before I knew to look for it. and ONLY if it is the first outlet in the circuit Certainly not a hard thing to do. ....assuming the installer is electrical system savvy... |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote: Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. Custom boat builder (that I expect are pretty pricey from the description) http://www.stormboats.com/4pagebrochurepg1.htm Read down the page to the boxed in "Standard Features" "Hand soldered and heat shrunk wire connections" I guess they think it's a selling point. Now can you just stop with this thread? -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
bb, what word didn't you understand? you are yattering away at schlackoff.
I'm finished? That's just one more thing you are wrong about, Jax. BB |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:55:07 -0700, "Evan Gatehouse"
wrote: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote: Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. Custom boat builder (that I expect are pretty pricey from the description) http://www.stormboats.com/4pagebrochurepg1.htm Read down the page to the boxed in "Standard Features" "Hand soldered and heat shrunk wire connections" I guess they think it's a selling point. Now can you just stop with this thread? Ok, you did a little work for me to prove BB wrong. But on google, it's actually pretty easy to find manufactureres who solder their connections. How about another: http://www.mitziskiffs.com/herald_review.html "The wiring is first-rate, with all connections soldered for dependability." Or yet another: http://www.sportfishingmag.com/artic...categoryID=282 " Wiring has heat-shrink tubing and soldered connections" Or: http://www.sailmarket.com/boat_of_week/11-8.html A custom owner/built boat with "Anchor Brand stranded and tinned wire with all terminals crimped, soldered and shrink-wrapped" which passed survey with no exceptions, no recommendations, proving that a boat with soldered wiring can pass a survey. Or: http://www.woodenboatshop.com.au/cru...peanspecs.html "Bilge pump & Float switch: Automatic Rule 1500 with soldered tinned copper wire and fuse" I hope these 5 actual examples are enough to show BinaryBill that he's wrong. Probably not though. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
schlackoff, by your reasoning, because you can find information on the net
about Area 51, aliens must exist. only the ignorant solder. Been so for nearly 40 years. From: (Steven Shelikoff) Date: 6/3/2004 8:34 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:55:07 -0700, "Evan Gatehouse" wrote: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote: Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. Custom boat builder (that I expect are pretty pricey from the description) http://www.stormboats.com/4pagebrochurepg1.htm Read down the page to the boxed in "Standard Features" "Hand soldered and heat shrunk wire connections" I guess they think it's a selling point. Now can you just stop with this thread? Ok, you did a little work for me to prove BB wrong. But on google, it's actually pretty easy to find manufactureres who solder their connections. How about another: http://www.mitziskiffs.com/herald_review.html "The wiring is first-rate, with all connections soldered for dependability." Or yet another: http://www.sportfishingmag.com/artic...categoryID=282 " Wiring has heat-shrink tubing and soldered connections" Or: http://www.sailmarket.com/boat_of_week/11-8.html A custom owner/built boat with "Anchor Brand stranded and tinned wire with all terminals crimped, soldered and shrink-wrapped" which passed survey with no exceptions, no recommendations, proving that a boat with soldered wiring can pass a survey. Or: http://www.woodenboatshop.com.au/cru...peanspecs.html "Bilge pump & Float switch: Automatic Rule 1500 with soldered tinned copper wire and fuse" I hope these 5 actual examples are enough to show BinaryBill that he's wrong. Probably not though. Steve |
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