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Potentially DANGEROUS advice.

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Rod,

Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to
earth in a building.

Are you referring to the safety ground (a non current carrying circuit) or
the "neutral" ground?

It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes
and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street.

What country are you in? If you had said "instead of" I might agree with
you, but my experience sure doesn't support "as well as".

I admit to not being well versed in the various building codes across the
USA, but I have done a fair amount of house and business wiring here in
California. I have also built a number of products that are sold in the USA
and have had to pass UL and CSA safety agency approval.

The standard configuration that I have always encountered is that "Neutral"
connects back to the power company's transformer (which usually has a
connection to a copper rod driven into the ground) while the safety ground
is referenced to a copper rod driven into the ground at the point of entry.

In addition to the safety ground wired throughout the house it is common for
certain appliances and equipment to establish a separate safety ground.
This is especially important when installing equipment into older homes that
were not wired with the three terminal receptacles. It is very common for
the washing machine to have a extra safety ground. Dishwashers, garbage
disposals, gas dryers, and other appliances that connect to both electrical
and gas/water lines may establish a separate path to ground just by their
very nature.

Many businesses, especially those that work with sensitive electronic
components, will go to elaborate steps to ground all the work benches as
part of their anti-static protection.

Here in the USA it is common for people to install satellite dishes on their
rooftops. The standard installation kit includes a separate ground rod that
provides a safety ground connection to the satellite dish. This in turn
gets connected to the received via the coax cable.

Likewise, cable TV introduces another version of what could be considered
"ground". The shield of the cable coax is connected to ground at the cable
company's equipment. This makes the entire chassis of the cable box "cable
ground". If the cable box has a grounded plug then the two are connected at
that point. Every piece of equipment that connects to the cable box,
including the TV, VCR, stereo, etc. will then have their chassis ground
referenced to some combination of house entry ground, satellite dish ground
and cable company ground.

It is unwise and perhaps illegal to use a water pipe as "the" safety ground.
It would be very difficult to maintain isolation between separate references
and here in the USA it is intentionally done all the time.

However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with
the
earth across millions of square meters of surface.

Yes, but the water itself (especially freshwater) is not a perfect
conductor. The amount of surface area that the water has to the ground is
irrelevant as the water to earth resistance is not significant compared to
the resistance of the water alone. In addition, unless you have a steel
hulled boat the surface area of possibly energized parts of the boat (prop,
shaft, rudder, strut, zincs and through hull fittings) will be very small.

As an individual, you are in control of your
electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and
maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use.

I challenge the concept that breaking the accepted and standard method of
grounding your boat and providing your own is "good practice".

The question you
have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of
other
people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth
connection at the dock.

You I fear most of all.

Are you implying that you rely on the water to provide your safety ground
connection? Or have you driven a copper rod into the earth below your dock
and religiously connect it? Do you inspect this installation on a regular
basis (including diving down to inspect the entire length of the rod?)

If you installed an appropriate ground and maintain it properly then you
will be safe. Please convert your boat back to a standard configuration
before you sell it or let anyone else use it.

If you are relying on the water to provide your safety ground then you are
the dangerous one. Okay, you mentioned that you use an isolation
transformer, which would certainly reduce the risk considerably. Without
the isolation transformer, however, your advice is an accident waiting to
happen.

Rod

Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?

This from someone who doesn't know how to reason.

schlackoff, by your reasoning, because you can find information on the net
about Area 51, aliens must exist.

This from someone who doesn't know how to reason.

Steve

Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?

you probably won't even get the conundrum.

schlackoff, by your reasoning, because you can find information on the net
about Area 51, aliens must exist.

This from someone who doesn't know how to reason.

This from someone who doesn't know how to reason.

Jax, by your reasoning, because you don't have the ability to reason,
you're a drunken fool who's failed at everything in life, including
rehab.

Steve

P.S., you probably won't even get the conundrum.

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.

Rod McInnis wrote:
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...

Rod,

Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to
earth in a building.

Are you referring to the safety ground (a non current carrying circuit) or
the "neutral" ground?

It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes
and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street.

What country are you in? If you had said "instead of" I might agree with
you, but my experience sure doesn't support "as well as".

I admit to not being well versed in the various building codes across the
USA, but I have done a fair amount of house and business wiring here in
California. I have also built a number of products that are sold in the USA
and have had to pass UL and CSA safety agency approval.

The standard configuration that I have always encountered is that "Neutral"
connects back to the power company's transformer (which usually has a
connection to a copper rod driven into the ground) while the safety ground
is referenced to a copper rod driven into the ground at the point of entry.

In addition to the safety ground wired throughout the house it is common for
certain appliances and equipment to establish a separate safety ground.
This is especially important when installing equipment into older homes that
were not wired with the three terminal receptacles. It is very common for
the washing machine to have a extra safety ground. Dishwashers, garbage
disposals, gas dryers, and other appliances that connect to both electrical
and gas/water lines may establish a separate path to ground just by their
very nature.

Many businesses, especially those that work with sensitive electronic
components, will go to elaborate steps to ground all the work benches as
part of their anti-static protection.

Here in the USA it is common for people to install satellite dishes on their
rooftops. The standard installation kit includes a separate ground rod that
provides a safety ground connection to the satellite dish. This in turn
gets connected to the received via the coax cable.

Likewise, cable TV introduces another version of what could be considered
"ground". The shield of the cable coax is connected to ground at the cable
company's equipment. This makes the entire chassis of the cable box "cable
ground". If the cable box has a grounded plug then the two are connected at
that point. Every piece of equipment that connects to the cable box,
including the TV, VCR, stereo, etc. will then have their chassis ground
referenced to some combination of house entry ground, satellite dish ground
and cable company ground.

It is unwise and perhaps illegal to use a water pipe as "the" safety ground.
It would be very difficult to maintain isolation between separate references
and here in the USA it is intentionally done all the time.

However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with

the

earth across millions of square meters of surface.

Yes, but the water itself (especially freshwater) is not a perfect
conductor. The amount of surface area that the water has to the ground is
irrelevant as the water to earth resistance is not significant compared to
the resistance of the water alone. In addition, unless you have a steel
hulled boat the surface area of possibly energized parts of the boat (prop,
shaft, rudder, strut, zincs and through hull fittings) will be very small.

As an individual, you are in control of your
electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and
maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use.

I challenge the concept that breaking the accepted and standard method of
grounding your boat and providing your own is "good practice".

The question you
have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of

other

people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth
connection at the dock.

You I fear most of all.

Are you implying that you rely on the water to provide your safety ground
connection? Or have you driven a copper rod into the earth below your dock
and religiously connect it? Do you inspect this installation on a regular
basis (including diving down to inspect the entire length of the rod?)

If you installed an appropriate ground and maintain it properly then you
will be safe. Please convert your boat back to a standard configuration
before you sell it or let anyone else use it.

If you are relying on the water to provide your safety ground then you are
the dangerous one. Okay, you mentioned that you use an isolation
transformer, which would certainly reduce the risk considerably. Without
the isolation transformer, however, your advice is an accident waiting to
happen.

Rod

Well, it seems to me that once 'at sea' a vessel is isolated from
external electrical distribution system threats, such as an
energised earth connected to one side of a power source, requiring
only a single further connection to electrocute any nearby person
standing on God's natural green earth, which was provided in an
un-energised state, and which no-one has the right to energise,
poison, paint, or otherwise deface without having license, posting
adequate warnings, and willingly paying any damage claims shown to
involve current through the earth, which should be absolutely anathema.

Grr. Yes, I am ****ed off about this, and I maintain that the only
reason for it's defense by hydro is because of ancient legal
precedent protecting them from electrocutions caused by stepping on
to the face of the earth. If not for the 'earth safety neutral'
connection, anyone holding the black wire in his teeth could still
walk barefoot on the earth without danger.

If all devices were wired in a bifilar manner only, there could be
no electrocution danger from touching earth. Current cannot flow
without 2 connections to the power source. One of them should not be
universally mandated for the convenience of the electrical power
industry, and to the detriment of every freehold citizen.

The electrical industry has been hiding behind government for a
century, enabled only by incorrect politicians who have made the
deadly practice en 'essential' feature of the system. So, we see an
early attempt to minimise wire useage costing us an extra connector,
the earth return / not conductor / killing messenger and an
imaginary 'neutral', or ground, by the majic of undemocratic
illogical politicians and whoring lawyers, who listen to inventors,
not refiners of technology. Unfortunately, no-one should claim to
have invented electricity, or any of it's roots. It was discovered,
and continues to be refined and universally owned, not be
patentable, except for short times.

It could be done differently, and doing so would not cost as much as
was recently wasted in Irag. 'Double insulated' tools (which have
only 2 wire plugs) is a step in the right direction farther than
neccessary, and such similar practice must become the new standard
for all of the industry. All chassis should be completely isolated
from any electrical connection, even the dirt, as was definitely not
the practice anywhere until recently.

The concept of 'ground' itself is flawed. As a technician, I
understand that 'ground' is purely an arbitrary standard existing
only at the end of my test meter's ground (or, 'reference') probe.

All AC power has a wavelenth associated with it's frequency. The
voltage at one end of an AC wire is not the same as at the other,
because of phase delay. At 60 hz, the wavelenght is about 3000
miles. The voltage on the AC system is not simultaneously the same
say, on opposite coasts. Every generator's local reference is
naturally different in time from the other's, so they can all feed
into each other without burning up. The concept of ground or earth,
is irrellevant at AC for power, the only important measurements that
can be made are bifilar, very local, and must be understood as
difficult to accomplish for flesh, unless you wire the earth itself,
save for lightning. Electricians wear rubber insulated boots. Why?
because barefoot, they would be in danger for only one reason, the
'safety' ground.

"Modern" earth ground safety dogma is a murderous myth, defended by
Edison et al to preserve their sacrosanct immunity from
responsibility for originally expropriating the entire earth for
use an an electrical conductor from the beginning of electrical use.

An illegal theft from the beginning, unneccessary, complicating,
stupid, defended by politicians, and now, even by dumbed down
engineers who whole heartedly swallow the rationale they are fed in
school, where free thought is rigorously stamped out by lawyers,
teachers and councellors.

Crazily (?) some survivors can't resist thinking freely, even *with*
flourides.

Doubt your foundations! You will find those you can trust, at sea,
Billy!

Life is dangerous. Don't let the stupid ones win. You are Darwin.
Take this part of a continuing diatribe with all the salt you can
afford. Borrow more.

We all live on the slope of a volcano in whom's hot guts continues a
juggling act involving fizzy gobs of locally slow neutrons and fluid
heavy elements, all in zero gee, a spherical atomic hell, completely
not understood. Get used to it.

Why go to Mars? Because we can? Because some one else might? Sailors
have gone to sea in ships for long voyages since wood was found to
float. But should public health and education get the money instead?

Would safety result? For whom?

Some power structures exist best in an atmosphere of great fear.

Everything is relative.

Terry k

Potentially DANGEROUS advice.

1) Thirty years an industrial and commercial electrician and I've never worn
rubber insulated boots, or even known anyone that owned a pair. Gloves,
leather over rubber, for working on large hot connections, but never boots.
Actually, in areas that didn't require steel-toed shoes I wore slip-on boat
shoes.

2) Sorry, but the electrical power companies don't use the earth as a
conductor. Never have. They don't even have a neutral conductor. Power is
distributed using a three phase system invented by Tesla with no specific
reference to the earth. The first public power generator, at Niagara Falls,
was a three phase system. Neutrals are created at the customers transformer
and are usually grounded for safety. There is no current through a ground
wire under normal (non-fault) conditions.

3) Edison championed a DC power distribution system using positive and
negative wires. He didn't use an earth return either.

4) You're right, if an electrical system doesn't have an 'earth safety
neutral' you could walk around with a hot wire in your mouth. However, if
any other piece of equipment developed a fault to ground your teeth would
light up and your tongue would smoke. The ground wire protects you by
tripping a circuit breaker when that first fault occurs. Without the safety
ground, the fault wouldn't trip the breaker and you would be dead.

5) Your ranting and raving would sound a lot more intelligent if it was
based on facts instead of popular misconceptions.

Rusty O