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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Tom, you are incorrect. A solder joint under vibration can easily create a
resistive connection and it can be undetectable until it overheats. Please review my previous advice and use a crimping tool that creats a very high pressure crimp. Steve "Tom Shilson" wrote in message ... dazed and confuzed wrote: Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. I agree. The crimp is for a solid mechanical connection. The solder gives a good electrical connection and resists corrosion. Tom of the Swee****er Sea |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:44:14 -0400, Matt Colie wrote:
IF soldering is such a bad idea, then why are the windings (which are made up of solid copper bars) inside an 800 megawatt generator (unit 2 Monroe MI) all soldered at the joints? I watched them do this during a repair thirty years ago. Matt Colie I'd wager silver solder was used. Norm B wrote: On Fri, 28 May 2004 20:55:06 +0200, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: Tom, you are incorrect. A solder joint under vibration can easily create a resistive connection and it can be undetectable until it overheats. Please review my previous advice and use a crimping tool that creats a very high pressure crimp. Steve Vibration is not the only consideration, as it is illegal to solder power connections in a building - at least in the U.S. The bottom line is that solder is inappropriate for power wires anywhere, other than in a few very specific applications. Unless you are manufacturing electronic devices, you are unlikely to encounter those applications. BB "Tom Shilson" wrote in message . .. dazed and confuzed wrote: Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. I agree. The crimp is for a solid mechanical connection. The solder gives a good electrical connection and resists corrosion. Tom of the Swee****er Sea |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Personnally, I don't think the solder melting is the problem. The problem
is the heat being generated in a defective solder joint and that heat is passed on to the connected wires. I've had to rebuild several power supplies where the breakers/fuses never tripped/popped until after the wire insulation melted off of the wires and the wires came in contact with each other or ground. Pass the crimpers please. Mike B USAF Retired 30 Year Electronics Tech. "dazed and confuzed" wrote in message ... wrote: On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:03:11 GMT, Dan Best wrote: I didn't know that. Why is it not safe? What problems can it cause? In some situations the wire could heat up enough to soften or even melt the solder before tripping a breaker. This could result in the joint coming apart, and the free ends could then contact something else, including a human. The other problem if the solder melts is that molten solder could drip and bridge two things that should not be bridged, or land on something flammable. These things don't happen a lot, but they have happend enough to be included in wiring and safety codes. Many codes relate to things that rarely occur, but have serious consequences when they DO occur. How often does a smoke detector have to save your life to be worthwhile? BB Thanks - Dan wrote: On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:47 -0500, dazed and confuzed wrote: QLW wrote: I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not melt before the breaker trips. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... NEVER solder an electrical connection within a vehicle or any machine that is subject to motion or vibration. The solder creates a stress concentration at the end of the solder, which in time will cause the wire to break right at the joint. That is why it should never be done. Those that have done this and not experienced a failure are simply lucky. Steve Generally I crimped and soldered all connections on my boat. IMO there is little motion or vibration of well supported wires within a boat's structure. HOWEVER (and this is a big one), I would NOT solder connections to wires that are attached to the engine, where there is significant vibration. I had an alternator output wire fail right at the end of the solder connection, which seemed to be an obvious fatigue failure. Could have been nasty if it hadn't broken cleanly away. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
dude who publicly calls himself "dazed and confuzed" be advised that you are
arguing against something the professionals determined decades ago. Give it up, or look even more a fool. -0500, dazed and confuzed wrote: if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not melt before the breaker trips. Wanna bet your life on everything being perfect and staying that way? BB In the real world nothing is perfect. You are betting your life on the fact that a crimp is perfect as well. Most (not all) solder terminals have some sort of minimal mechanical connection to hold the conductor in the terminal until it is soldered. How do you know that the crimp terminal was done properly? Yet you are willing to "bet your life" on the fact that it is. It's harder to tell if a crimped terminal is done improperly than a soldered one. There is a place for soldered and a place for crimped connections. Yet either is a good connection IF done properly. If not, either will fail. The fools are the ones that crimp and then solder. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
In the real world nothing is perfect. You are betting your life on the
fact that a crimp is perfect as well. Most (not all) solder terminals have some sort of minimal mechanical connection to hold the conductor in the terminal until it is soldered. In Military aircraft, (some years ago in my experience) only soldered connections were approved. Only stranded wire was used, and a clip-on heatsink was used on a small (say 1/8 inch on #16 wire) area just outside the lug, so solder could not 'wick' into the rest of the stranded wire, which would degrade the vibration resistance of the wire. Inspectors had to see the soldered connection before sleeving was applied over the wire end and lug. Initially I thought this was a little over-conservative. Then I realized it was my friends from High School who were flying those F4's and at 500 MPH close to the ground those connections mattered. -- Regards, Terry King ...In The Woods In Vermont "The one who dies with the most parts LOSES! What do you need??" |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
none wrote in message ...
what an absurd response! For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; therefore stranded wire is best for high current loads of Dc. If the wire is well supported and larger than necessary for the rated current AND cheap enough vs stranded, then go with it. Otherwise, stranded. rick Skin effect is something that occurs at higher frequencies. At DC the electron distribution is equal through the CS of the wire. Skin effect can usually be ignored below 50 kHz. Rodney |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
wrote in message ... Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB Don't get people stressed out. Boats are NOT covered by the NEC - it is for buildings. I don't know about NFPA but I suspect they are also exempt there too. If you solder the connections in your boat, it is perfectly o.k. according to ABYC. Some stuff from ABYC (stuff snipped) http://www.cmsquick.com/tech_abyc_E.html : Wiring connections shall be designed and installed to make mechanical and electrical joints without damage to the conductors (E8&9). Twist-on connectors (wire nuts) shall not be used (E8&9). Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8) Solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used and which will produce a connection meeting the requirements of ABYC (E8.15.14 and E9.15.K4). -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
There have been a lot of good comments made - If you read them and research
the detail to qualify the information provided. My contribution to this discussion is the following URL to Boat US Electrical. There are many other good articles there as well. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I would think solid wire would be inadvisable for the same reason you don't
find it on automobiles. The vehicle moves and shakes, and in the case of many boats it flexes. This would cause the wire no mater how well secured to move and flex. It will inevitable succomb to metal fatigue over time. In some cases it might take years, but it will fail. In some cases it could fail fairly quickly. -- Public Fishing Forums Fishing Link Index www.YumaBassMan.com webmaster at YumaBsssMan dot com "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
ABYC E-11 is being revised to eliminate the allowance for soldered/crimped terminations and specify crimped only. Charlie "Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB Don't get people stressed out. Boats are NOT covered by the NEC - it is for buildings. I don't know about NFPA but I suspect they are also exempt there too. If you solder the connections in your boat, it is perfectly o.k. according to ABYC. Some stuff from ABYC (stuff snipped) http://www.cmsquick.com/tech_abyc_E.html : Wiring connections shall be designed and installed to make mechanical and electrical joints without damage to the conductors (E8&9). Twist-on connectors (wire nuts) shall not be used (E8&9). Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8) Solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used and which will produce a connection meeting the requirements of ABYC (E8.15.14 and E9.15.K4). -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:52 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:38:12 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one. No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically superior to a crimped joint. And if it's properly supported, that removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and vibration on the solder junction. I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite the ABYC allowing it? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. In fact, it's a rare boat indeed that doesn't violate any of the ABYC rules. One that meets all of them is pretty much a gauranteed pass. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
dazed -- who is confuzed -- writes (without any understanding of the facts as
all): I mentioned NEC and NFPA as recognized standards for good reason. They are the result of not just engineering, but also compiled and analyzed data from actual events. The ABYC standards tend to flow from standards such as these. The ABYC standards in fact, are in the process of being updated to match these tried and true, universally accepted standards. Solder is sometimes okay for signal wires, not power wires. I have already posted some of the things that are bad about it earlier in this thread. This is nothing new. NEC and NFPA are a conglomeration of standards written in the past (sometimes as long ago as 1935) to which have been added regulations and standards yearly until present day. Quite often, standards in one section contradict standards in other sections. They fail to take into account changes in materials as well as changes in technology. While some of these codes are based on good engineering, many of them are obsolete. Basing a boats DC power wiring standards on high current high amperage AC wiring standards for residential or industrial applications is foolish. Enough arguing. Thanks for your opinion. You've heard mine. I'm done. -- I ain't looking for trouble,.....but you can find it here. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
yeah, steveie, that is why crimped/then soldered has been the industry
requirement fot nearly four decades. Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one. No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically superior to a crimped joint. And if it's properly supported, that removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and vibration on the solder junction. I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite the ABYC allowing it? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. In fact, it's a rare boat indeed that doesn't violate any of the ABYC rules. One that meets all of them is pretty much a gauranteed pass. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:12:42 GMT, "MMC" wrote:
Rhys, Have you come up with a model/plan for your LED lighting? No, not other than replacing the cabin "spot" lights (the ones primarily for reading placed over berths and so on) with the bayonet style LEDs that cost $19 but are alleged to last 100,000 hours (I may not last that long, so it's good to go for me!) There was a guy some time ago (in this newsgroup) who had used 12vdc LED trailer lighting (I believe from JC Whitney) in his boat. It gave an amber glow and was mounted under the decks on either side of the cabin. Looked good. That msg string included some very high tech-high price options. I might get string of those LEDs and experiment.... I think that's a great idea. Area lighting and spot or purpose lighting on a boat are two different things. Generally, I have little use for the former: if I have people over for drinks and nosh, a few candles and maybe a kerosene lamp provide all the light and "atmosphere" I require. Essentially, I am talking about cabin spots for reading and maybe for the nav station. Using LEDs for running lights is still an unknown quantity for me, but I am considering equipping my Zodiac tender with an LED tricolour run off the Honda OB alternator (magneto?), all of which is 12 VDC. As I am under 10 HP, I don't legally require nav lights, but I prefer to be seen as I use the calm late nights to plane around Toronto Island, which is heavily trafficked with "disco boats". R. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:06:08 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote: This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire. yes, I agree. Older boats seem to have "cheaped out" with wire runs, and it's a no-brainer to get thicker wire--stranded is preferred--and to see immediate results at the amp meter and the masthead. R. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Actually the National Electrical Code is updated every three years, not
every year. While it does date back to the early years of the last century, it has kept up to date with new materials and technology. As an example, they added a section on recharging stations for electric powered cars some time ago. There are sections on computer networks and wiring systems to allow for the use of switching power supplies. ( They can overload the neutral conductor.) Some areas do not 'adopt' the NEC as their standards. The state of Oregon reviews it each issue, adds their own 'Adendum' and adopts the package about six months after issue. The NEC has been re-written to make itself more universally accepted. Some foreign countries are considering using it for their requirements. It is far from obsolete. Rusty O |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:30:44 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 01:04:37 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:52 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:38:12 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one. No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically superior to a crimped joint. I guess that's why the U.S. military doesn't use solder in any of it's aircraft wiring. And where did you hear that little tidbit of incorrect information? The military and NASA both use soldered connections where appropriate. There are MIL and NASA specs governing soldered connections. And while engsol gave a good lesson in soldering connections in an offshoot thread, if you want to see the NASA spec on soldered connections, it's he http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/solder.htm If you look at the part of the document in http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/sdr1922.pdf you'll see pictures of acceptable soldered connection of a multistranded wire into a cup pin termination. I know from personal knowledge that this kind of connection is found on the inside of connectors on many military aircraft. The connector has support for the wire at it's exit so there is no strain or vibration at the stranded to solid wire junction. And if it's properly supported, that removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and vibration on the solder junction. The ABYC is currently revising their standards to eliminate soldering as acceptable. And where did you hear that? I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite the ABYC allowing it? Because the insurance industry has it's own ideas about what it will and will not insure. They don't always follow ABYC or any other independant standard, although they certainley can if they feel like it. Insurance companies have a direct interest in prohibiting anything which they known to be an unnecessary risk. Which is why they allow solder on a connection. Can you point to any examples of a boat failing an insurance survey because of soldered wiring where the connection followed the ABYC rules? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. So, all surveyors are competent, honest and have advanced knowledge in all areas of boat construction? I have news for you. Surveyors, for the most part, are yard bums who pass a 20 question multiple choice quiz and pay a fee to join a "Surveyors Association". It's not easy to find a truly competent one. And you expect these incompetent surveyors to notice soldered connections and fail the boat because of it? Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. I'd love to see that. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Does MacGregor count?
SV wrote Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... BB |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by doing it, they don't do it. Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just crimped. Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits are not a factor. Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more money to solder. I'd love to see that. Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as you have claimed. Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs, noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring. Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to who's just blowing smoke. Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc. Steve |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea: My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I think, would be to have a second plug at the bow end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck that way as well. In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore power system. This is potentially very dangerous. The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise. If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time. And, since I have already barged in he Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance that should be followed, but bigger is better. Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have happened to me if it hadn't popped? GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air, expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 23:05:13 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by doing it, they don't do it. Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just crimped. Wow! You've just dropped all the way to MORON with that statement! You can't defend your position with anything better than that? You're finished. Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits are not a factor. Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more money to solder. I'd love to see that. Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as you have claimed. Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none do. How about that? Now, you provide at least ONE successful product liability lawsuit on a boat manufacturer that was due to properly soldered and supported connections. If you're claiming that's why they don't solder, you should be able to back that claim up. Of couse, you can't. Because it's wrong. Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs, noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring. Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to who's just blowing smoke. Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc. You are as anonymous as I am, or maybe even more so, and you have yet You don't even know the meaning of the word anonymous? Sheesh! to provide a contact at even ONE manufacturer who will support your wild theories. If the whole world agrees with you, then surely you can come up with ONE manufacturer? Nope, you can't! Even though there probably are manufactures that solder their wiring, I've already agreed several times (above and in previous post) that manufactureres don't use solder on their wiring because I just don't care to find any that do since it doesn't matter a single bit to my argument that it's ok for *you* to solder your wiring as long as it's done properly. How much more do you want then me agreeing that manufacturers don't solder their wiring? Are you going to show your lack of comprehension again and ask me yet another time to find ONE manufacturer that solders? Oh, and I wouldn't say that the whole world agrees with me. But the ones who do a 1) ABYC allows soldered wiring on boats if it conformes to ABYC E-8.15.19. 2) NASA allows soldered wiring on all vehicles (including the Space Shuttle) and critical support system if it conforms to NSTS 5300.4(1D-2), NASA-STD-8739.3, or NHB 5300.4(3A-1). 3) US Navy allows soldered wiring on aircraft and ships if the joint is properly made and supported. I've had cables made and installed on Navy aircraft that used soldered connections between stranded wire and cup pins which passed inspection since they were supported by a strain relief built into the plug. 4) Calder 5) All of the marine surveyors I've personally dealt with who have passed boats for insurance surveys that have at least some wiring connections soldered. Now it's your turn to provide a single lawsuit due to properly soldered wiring. You've claimed that's why they don't solder so you should be able to support that claim. Or show where a boat failed an insurance survey due to properly soldered wiring. You've claimed a boat with properly soldered wiring will fail an insurance survey so you should be able to support that claim as well. Those are both specific allegations you've made, both of which are unsubstantiated and just plain wrong. I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you? Can you provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations? Steve |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
I like the idea of shore power connectors at both ends of
a longer boat...less clutter. I've stepped on more power cords (and rolled my ankle) on the side decks than I care to admit. Of course, I've rolled my ankle on lines too..:) The below postings bring up an interesting question though. If a "dual feed" setup was desired,what would be the proper configuration? 1. Both shore power lines brought to the AC panel, and wired to a 2-pole 2-throw center-off switch, followed by a circuit breaker....(ensures no power to the inactive "branch") 2. Each shore power line fed to their own circuit breakers, then to the switch...(just in case the switch somehow goes foobar) 3. A "box" inside of which the shore power lines terminate in female receptacles, and a short jumper cord selects which ever circuit was desired...( two more connections to worry about) 4. Any other methods? How would you wire it? Another question...would it be wise to leave the safety grounds and nuetrals connected together, and only select only the hot side? (My answer would be no...the reason should be obvious) Norm B On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:15:52 -0400, Sam wrote: Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea: My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I think, would be to have a second plug at the bow end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck that way as well. In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore power system. This is potentially very dangerous. The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise. If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time. And, since I have already barged in he Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance that should be followed, but bigger is better. Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have happened to me if it hadn't popped? GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air, expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said. |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
Sam,
That is really good advice, but I should add that a GFCI will also save very serious electric corrosion if a leak should occur. Secondly, when plugging in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line. Instead use a line to your boat earth for the safety connection. Remember, your hull will always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution transformer for the pier or yard and any leak anywhere in that distribution net will use your hull as the preferred return path. This will create severe electric corrosion on your boat and you will never know why. Steve "Sam" wrote in message ... Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea: My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I think, would be to have a second plug at the bow end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck that way as well. In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore power system. This is potentially very dangerous. The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise. If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time. And, since I have already barged in he Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance that should be followed, but bigger is better. Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have happened to me if it hadn't popped? GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air, expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"dazed and confuzed" wrote in message ... wrote: if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not melt before the breaker trips. AND both the wire and terminal were properly heated to the proper temperature during soldering (no cold joints) AND the connection was free of contaminants ( no old corroded wires or terminals) In general, solder should not be used as a means of mechanical connection. I am not familiar with the various codes and standards related to boats. I am familiar with various codes and standards as related to standard industry and household, primarily Underwriter's Laboratories (UL) and CSA. For these safety agencies, no primary wires may be secure by means of solder alone. Solder can give you a superior connection over crimp. In the event that the connection is bad, however, a soldered connection can deteriorate very quickly. Rod |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
Sam,,
You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected. Just have them in every circuit. You can also install a GFCI circuit breaker which also protects that circuit. But in all, good advice. Paul "Sam" wrote in message ... snipped Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have happened to me if it hadn't popped? GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air, expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said. |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... Secondly, when plugging in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line. To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it wire this way it could create issues with the insurance. You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity of the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause problems. Instead use a line to your boat earth for the safety connection. Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't corroded away. Remember, your hull will always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution transformer for the pier or yard Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true. Rod |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote...
You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected. Just have them in every circuit. ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, and ONLY if it is the first outlet in the circuit and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired correctly! |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:46:12 GMT, wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:21:58 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote: Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none do. How about that? Please explain why no boat manufacturers use solder. Be specific, and provide examples, cites and anything else you wish as evidence. The claim that no manufacturers use solder because of cost is absurd, and I have pointed out why. Lol. You really don't believe the extravagent cost of properly soldering the wiring for a marginal benefit in conductivity is why they don't do it? You're too funny.:) Ok, let me ask you this: how many boat manufacturers do you think properly crimp every connection? And by properly, I mean by using a racheting type mil-spec crimp tool that makes a 360 degree crimp that cold welds the connector to the wire, not just a dimple that most crimp tools make. I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you? According to Steven Shelikoff, (at least that's the "name" he uses on usenet) no manufacturers use solder for boat wiring. Um, no. Please get it right. It's according to the anonymous that no manufacturers use solder for boat wiring. I'm just willing to let that slide because I don't feel like trying to prove you wrong on that point since whether or not manufacturers use solder has no bearing on the discussion of whether it's ok for YOU to use solder. You have yet to provide any evidence of your claim that the reason boat manufacturers don't properly solder their wiring is due to product liability lawsuits. Can you find ONE manufacturer who will support that allegation? Can you find ONE successful lawsuit arising from a problem with properly soldered wiring? If you are correct that liability lawsuits is the reason manufacturers don't do it, there will be at lease one case. Now I don't think you'll find a single manufacturer who gold plates their tiller either. But that doesn't mean you can't gold plate your tiller if you want to, and it will still pass an insurance survey. Do you think manufacturers don't gold plate their tillers because of product liability reasons? lol Can you provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations? I just did. You did? Where? Where's the single shred of evidence that supports your claim that if you have soldered connections on your boat it will not pass an insurance survey? Where's the single shred of evidence that supports your claim that the reason boat manufacturers don't use properly soldered connections is because of product liability lawsuits? You have yet to provide ONE manufacturer who says the reason they don't properly solder their wiring is because of product liability reasons and have yet to provide ONE example of a boat that didn't pass an insurance survey due to properly soldered wiring. In trying to defend your position, you've disagreed with the ABYC, NASA, Navy, Calder and many marine surveyors. Now that it's been proven you're wrong and you have nothing to support your assertions, there's no shame in admitting you're wrong, learning from it and moving on. Continuing to try and defend the indefensible and stooping to personal insults out of your frustration from not being able to provide any proof of your wild unsubstantiated allegations only makes you look foolish. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
schlackoff, go to sleep. come back three days from now.
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:46:12 GMT, wrote: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:21:58 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote: Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none do. How about that? Please explain why no boat manufacturers use solder. Be specific, and provide examples, cites and anything else you wish as evidence. The claim that no manufacturers use solder because of cost is absurd, and I have pointed out why. Lol. You really don't believe the extravagent cost of properly soldering the wiring for a marginal benefit in conductivity is why they don't do it? You're too funny.:) Ok, let me ask you this: how many boat manufacturers do you think properly crimp every connection? And by properly, I mean by using a racheting type mil-spec crimp tool that makes a 360 degree crimp that cold welds the connector to the wire, not just a dimple that most crimp tools make. I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you? According to Steven Shelikoff, (at least that's the "name" he uses on usenet) no manufacturers use solder for boat wiring. Um, no. Please get it right. It's according to the anonymous that no manufacturers use solder for boat wiring. I'm just willing to let that slide because I don't feel like trying to prove you wrong on that point since whether or not manufacturers use solder has no bearing on the discussion of whether it's ok for YOU to use solder. You have yet to provide any evidence of your claim that the reason boat manufacturers don't properly solder their wiring is due to product liability lawsuits. Can you find ONE manufacturer who will support that allegation? Can you find ONE successful lawsuit arising from a problem with properly soldered wiring? If you are correct that liability lawsuits is the reason manufacturers don't do it, there will be at lease one case. Now I don't think you'll find a single manufacturer who gold plates their tiller either. But that doesn't mean you can't gold plate your tiller if you want to, and it will still pass an insurance survey. Do you think manufacturers don't gold plate their tillers because of product liability reasons? lol Can you provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations? I just di |
Potentially DANGEROUS advice.
In article ,
engsol wrote: Norm B I sent you an nice return email, Norm, but it bounced due to a nonexistant email address..... email me a good address and I will send it again.... Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Somebody wrote:
Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in a heartbeat if it was better. Boat builders are basically carpenters, not electrical engineers. When it comes to things electrical, boat builders have a tough time figuring out how to get out of the rain. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
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